It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Scribe]

Missed my point…5e is where the money is at for 3pp to have the best chance at making a profitable product. Going to a smaller game system limits the market as we can see in the Kickstarter…we don’t see cypher, PF, 2d20 with more than 1 or any above 1m. The market isn’t there right now for them to try and risk it.

I'm not sure people disagree.

The point is, at least some of us are making, is that 5e, is no longer Wizbro. If I thought 5e was good enough, I'd support 3PP folks with my hobby dollar, before I would send anything further to Wizbro.

Thats fine.

The premise of this thread, and what a few folks in it seem to be doing, is 'Come back to Wizards, they are really really sorry and promise to be nice, just dont split up the player base, because its better for me to have a monopoly!'

Thats, not a great look.

 

[Jadeite]

Good example in kobold press …go to their store page and sort to the latest releases….you’ll notice a trend of a vast majority are 5e related. I wonder why they aren’t making PF products as much and focusing on 5e.

They were the biggest 3PP for PF1 and had many (for that time) successful Kickstarters for that game (Deep Magic or Southlands were originally kickstarted Pathfinder supllements). They even did a quarterly physical magazine for many years (it started out as 3.5, but moved to Pathfinder). They were one of the few PFRPG 3PPs whose content was used for Paizo products.
But with 5E's release, Pathfinder started to lose players and once WotC released the SRD for fifth edition, many publishers, including Kobold Press, switched their releases to that system. They kept supporting PF1 for a while, but didn't switch to PF2 once it got released. PF2 worked out well enough for Paizo, but didn't reach the amount of players to become interesting for 3PPs. That might also be due Paizo having a far bigger release schedule than WotC (about 2 books per month), leaving less room for 3PP supplement. But on the other hands, Paizo's Open Content policy allows other publishers to build upon their released.
I guess we will see an influx of 3PP PF2 releases, currently most people switching seem to be occupied with buying up the Paizo Rulebooks. But with Kobold Press' Black Flag plans, I'm not expecting them to switch to PF2 anytime soon.

 

[Aldarc]

Missed my point…5e is where the money is at for 3pp to have the best chance at making a profitable product. Going to a smaller game system limits the market as we can see in the Kickstarter…we don’t see cypher, PF, 2d20 with more than 1 or any above 1m. The market isn’t there right now for them to try and risk it.

Best as I can tell, the argument confuses making a high amount of revenue from a Kickstarter with making a successful or profitable product. Revenue =! Profit.

Moreover, making a successfully profitable product does not require making a +1 million dollar Kickstarter. There are plenty of profitable products out there for 5e or otherwise that do not scratch the surface of million dollar revenue Kickstarters. Some of what makes these other Kickstarters more profitable is that they keep their costs down, have a mostly finished product at the outset, or aren’t offering non-system related stretch goals (e.g., dice, minis, etc.) that raise production and shipping costs.

Going to another system does limit the market; however, many profitable products and Kickstarters also don’t use the 5e system. Monte Cook Games and Free League have a lot of profitable Kickstarters to the point of being able to employ a company staff. Before million dollar Kickstarters became the new norm, Monte Cook Games, in particular, practically wrote the playbook for how to run a successful Kickstarter for TTRPGs.

The market is there for making a profitable Kickstarter for non-5e products but that also means settling that your product will not necessarily be one of the highest grossing TTRPG products out there. The money is there and it also was there before 5e products really made their way onto Kickstarter. I have no doubt that 5e attracts the most attention. It is the 800 lb. gorilla. However, there are many successful creators and products out there that have never used 5e.

 

[Greg K]

Not really. D4 deep dive and Treantmonk said they would not do other games. Treantmonk saying he might some time in the future but couldn't at this time because he did not know the rules to other games. Dungeon Dudes stated they would be doing mostly 5E content but they were going to include more 5E content from 3rd party creators. They said they would report on other games but said the majority would be 5E.

I didn't say they would stop covering 5e, but would be expanding. True, Treantmonk said that he couldn't at this point, but that was not saying he would not do other games. As you noted, he would need to become much more familiar with other games . So, I probably should have written open to expanding rather than expanding.

Now, Dungeon Dudes listed a few games they were interested in playing and covering- (e.g. Call of Cthulhu). And, maybe, I am reading too much too much into Ginny Di's tweets, but she had tweeted that her reconsidering her future did not mean she would stop making content. Since then, she has retweeted about 13th Age, tweeted or retreated the bundle with content from both Kobold Press and OSR creators, and asked about some of the rpgs people have played with simpler rules. She has also been pushing Mage Hand Press's Witchy Cakes (?) game kickstarter.

As for D4 Deep Dive, I couldn't recall if Colby had stated one way or another or if I was recalling his Pathfinder videos and mixed him up with someone else that stated they would be covering other games

 

[EthanSental]

Maybe not my last comment above so I can say thanks to the thoughtful replies above from @Scribe , @Jadeite and @Aldarc

 

[Justice and Rule]

Let’s look at the million dollar Kickstarter list on Enworld.

23 over a million.
5e related - 15
Apocalypse - 1
Cypher - 1
Year zero engine - 1
D100 - 1
D12 - 1
3 that I couldn’t find rule system for (1ring 2nd edition, 7th sea, and Monty python).

No pathfinder 3pp over a million and other so called popular systems people could move too.

I’m sure if we went to 900k, we’d have even more 5e 3pp like advanced level up.

I think the point is - if 3pp publishers want to make a living doing games, 5e is the game space to be. The others don’t have the following to support multiple companies making game content, much less the side things like podcast, videos, etc.

So I would suggest, those upset about this, give it time like a bad break up and let time heal the wound cause 1-2 years down the line when 1 dnd comes out and it’s potentially flying off the shelf, some people will be looking for a game group to play other lesser known or lesser liked systems…all because of a 3 week time span where they were upset with WoTC.

This is a very bad example, not the least of which because almost all of these Kickstarters were from the last two years in the RPG Superboom. Previous to now even 5E kickstarters generally weren't reaching a million dollars. And before that, plenty of non-WotC/non-Paizo companies were making a living. I mean, I've been a part of 3 Arc Dream Kickstarters and while none of them reached a million, they've gone up quite a bit and they seem like they are doing just fine right now.

 

[Aldarc]

There has been a line of argumentation here that has disturbed me surrounding how choosing not to buy from WotC affects 3pp. So let's be clear about something: If I as a consumer choose to buy products from WotC, Third Party Publishers do not see a single cent of that money. WotC gets all of that money. Third Party Publishers do not. If anyone chooses to boycott WotC products, then that has no bearing on whether they spend money supporting Third Party Publishers. It really only matters if they choose to buy Third Party Products via DMsGuild.

Third Party Publishers only receive financial support from me if I buy their products (e.g., Kickstarter, DMsGuild, DriveThruRPG, stores, etc.) or support them on Patreon or some other way. If I buy Third Party Publishers' materials on DMsGuild, then I am also giving WotC and OneBookShelf a slice. So if I am concerned about directly supporting 3pp, then there are better, often more direct ways of doing that. But as it turns out, it is possible for me to give 5e Third Party Publishers money without giving WotC my money. I can even watch 5e content creators on YouTube without giving WotC my money.

Moreover, people on this thread have been keen on reminding me and others that they are consumers first and foremost. If WotC has a product that they want, then they will buy it. If not, they won't buy it. That is also true for 3rd Party Publishers. As a consumer and hobbyist, I am not morally obligated to financially support either WotC or Third Party Publishers for D&D products. I too choose to vote with my wallet. There are plenty of 3rd Party Publishers out there who are choosing not to publish materials for the Dragon Game. I have voted with my wallet many times to support them via Kickstarter and DriveThruRPG. I do resent the idea that the only way that I can support the health of the hobby or 3pp is through feeding the overfed, feral Dragon. That's ridiculous and toxic.

Since 2013, I have help fund fifty TTRPG games (excluding more specialized non-system related products) on Kickstarter, and only six of them have been 5e-related products:

• Book of the Righteous by Green Ronin: I like supporting Green Ronin, and this was an update to one of my favorite 3Era books.
• EN World's A Touch of Class: Wanted to show my support for ENWorld's 5e Kickstarter.
• MCDM's Strongholds and Streaming: mainly to show support for Matt Colville
• MCDM's Flee Mortals: again, mainly to show support for Matt Colville
• Odyssey of the Dragonlords & Fateforge: both of these looked more interesting than they turned out to be, and I regret backing them

Probably the product that I have spent the most time pouring my time over from these has been Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous, which provided a nice face lift to one of my gold standard favorite supplements of all time. Truth be told, I have honestly used practically none of the 5e materials from these Kickstarters.

 

[glass]

I have not had anyone tell me they were specifically harmed

I wonder why that could possibly be...

and if I did I would ask them how.

...ah yes, that would cover it. People generally dislike being sealioned.

Linda Codega is the person who broke the story and they called it a "draft" in their very first article that started the reporting on this debacle. They were questioned a bit later on if it was actually, truely a draft and here is their statement:

There seems to be some cross-purposes talk going on. The OGL was the draft (albeit fairly obviously a final draft). The "sweetheart" contracts that accompanied it (and were not leaked due to being identifiable) were clearly not.

3 that I couldn’t find rule system for (1ring 2nd edition, 7th sea, and Monty python).

The One Ring and Seventh Sea are their own systems. D'know about Monty Python.

2. On the other hand if 2000 go to PF2, 2000 stay on 5E, 2000 go to COC, 2000 go to SotWW and 2000 go to GURPS. Now my business model is destroyed.

That is exactly the kind of harm that WotC caused, and that you have been denying all thread.

 

[Velderan]

Moreover, people on this thread have been keen on reminding me and others that they are consumers first and foremost. If WotC has a product that they want, then they will buy it. If not, they won't buy it. That is also true for 3rd Party Publishers. As a consumer and hobbyist, I am not morally obligated to financially support either WotC or Third Party Publishers for D&D products. I too choose to vote with my wallet. There are plenty of 3rd Party Publishers out there who are choosing not to publish materials for the Dragon Game. I have voted with my wallet many times to support them via Kickstarter and DriveThruRPG. I do resent the idea that the only way that I can support the health of the hobby or 3pp is through feeding the overfed, feral Dragon. That's ridiculous and toxic.

Yeah, couldn't agree more. Personally, the decision to leave WotC's 5e for PF2e wasn't made lightly and without consideration of a few factors (will my table come with, system enjoyment, how possible is it for 3pp to exist, and cost of switching in more or less that order of importance to me). WotC's shareholder's bottom line wasn't one of those factors and was less relevant to my gaming decision making as what will I have for lunch today.

But despite not having any interest in playing 5e for the foreseeable future, I absolutely will continue to support publishers I like just as I have in the past and would encourage others to do the same. I enjoy the world building material Nord Games makes and the sheer creativity and quality of Hit Point Press (HPP) makes whatever they release of interest to me. Some of those products are system neutral so I can likely find a use in PF2e. Others might just be stuff I have to strip the mechanics out and mine the story material for ideas. I'll definitely buy HPP's SHIFT system when that comes out and give that a try to see how it plays. The FLGS I visit have noted the increased interest in PF2e so hopefully they find the right balance to stock products I'll want to buy while continuing to have material for their 5e customers. Until they do, I've shifted my spending to other stuff they sell like board games.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah, couldn't agree more. Personally, the decision to leave WotC's 5e for PF2e wasn't made lightly and without consideration of a few factors (will my table come with, system enjoyment, how possible is it for 3pp to exist, and cost of switching in more or less that order of importance to me). WotC's shareholder's bottom line wasn't one of those factors and was less relevant to my gaming decision making as what will I have for lunch today.

But despite not having any interest in playing 5e for the foreseeable future, I absolutely will continue to support publishers I like just as I have in the past and would encourage others to do the same. I enjoy the world building material Nord Games makes and the sheer creativity and quality of Hit Point Press (HPP) makes whatever they release of interest to me. Some of those products are system neutral so I can likely find a use in PF2e. Others might just be stuff I have to strip the mechanics out and mine the story material for ideas. I'll definitely buy HPP's SHIFT system when that comes out and give that a try to see how it plays. The FLGS I visit have noted the increased interest in PF2e so hopefully they find the right balance to stock products I'll want to buy while continuing to have material for their 5e customers. Until they do, I've shifted my spending to other stuff they sell like board games.

I think that there is often a fundamental misunderstanding when it comes to these conversations.

I will reiterate one thing that I have said repeatedly- the people that I have seen that have been most vocal about stirring up things on this forum are those that are not currently playing 5e. It is interesting to see the people that have been most loudly proclaiming that they have moved to other systems prior to this debacle (or that never played 5e) now saying that they are just unable to morally support WoTC.

That doesn't minimize the very real feelings that some people are having- I noticed that some other people, like darjr, really are looking for fresh alternatives. That's a true loss for D&D to the extent that it isn't temporary.

But getting to the question of the overall ecology, I think that a lot of people are simply wishcasting. We live in a weird time- and some of us remember the last truly weird time (the early 80s). Right now ... we live in a golden era for 3PPs. For all publishers. For kickstarters. And why is this? It's because of the amazing (and, honestly, unforeseen) success of 5e. A lot of people are making a strange assumption- that there is some overall "TTRPG" (RPG) market, and that it will keep on at the current trajectory, and that there will just be a fight over marketshare.

In other words, the assumption is that this is an increasing pie, and that any part of the pie that D&D doesn't have will just go to 3PPs and other games.

That might be correct. But it probably isn't, just based on history and the market. We have had tons of competing games throughout history. Tons. With the exception of a very (VERY) brief blip in the 90s with WoD, none of them has even come close to D&D. Not a one. Instead, we are looking at a market of D&D (current editions, prior editions) and D&D clones, with a few other games sprinkled in. And when the "D&D" market declines, all the other games decline too. After all, one reason for the success of all those 3PPs with 5e is that Hasbro hasn't had a very aggressive release schedule ... even today! There's plenty of room for tweaks, modules, APs, campaign settings, and even "Advanced" versions of the game- because the market itself is so large.

Based on history, when D&D catches a cold, the rest of the industry, especially the 3PPs that depend on scale, catch pneumonia. Maybe this time will be different- maybe we just needed the big bad witch to die for everyone to start playing FiTD, and Fate, and PF2e will soon be growing the market and we will see articles about how there is a need for PF2e DMs that are paid and there are corporate retreats with people playing it!

Maybe. This is certainly possible! But this feels a lot more like 1984 than it does 2014.