Kyle Brink Interviewed by Teos Abadia (Alphastream) on OGL, WotC, & D&D

D&D executive producer's Kyle Brink's second hour-long interview OGL/D&D has dropped--this one is with Teos Abadia, otherwise known as Alphastream. The notes below are my attempt to paraphrase the main things Brink said, but as always you should watch the actual video if you want the full context.

Company Structure
  • There's around 30 people on the D&D team, and that many again freelancers.​
  • The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate.​
  • There has been increasing diversity in the pool of designers while maintaining quality.​
  • Brink reports to Dan Rawson, senior VP of D&D, who reports to Cynthia Williams, president.​
  • D&D Beyond is the front door to D&D on the web and will be even more so. It is the D&D website, and will become more so.​
  • D&D Game Studio is center for game content. D&D Beyond turns that into a play service. Content gets expressed in ways appropriate to an audiance (ie digital, book, etc.)​
OGL/Creative Commons
  • It was a surprise to some of the D&D team that the OGL might be changed. Partly that was about shielding them from distracting stuff. Brink feels that was too strong a wall and their views might have been beneficial.
  • Some internal feedback from the D&D team reflected the views of external creators.
  • The community's point of view was not the one wining internally, but may have been had people there been able to speak more loudly.
  • The worry was about new technologies and big companies--Brink uses the VR example, with user generated content but poor content controls. They didn't want the term D&D to become 'that video porn game' looking ahead.
  • The position now is that the community is the strongest weapon against that.
  • The royalties were to discourage big companies moving in and redefining D&D. By 'drips and drips' they got to the wrong position. $750K was a ceiling which they felt would not affect most creators, and larger companies would deal directly with WotC.
  • Right now they're looking at protecting D&D via things not now in the Creative Commons. Community protects the open space and WotC protects copyright and trademark.
  • They feel that the community is able to take care of hateful content.
  • They want the creator community. A deal where WotC got more powers to act but lost the creator community was not a good deal.
  • NFTs are not the concern, it's about how people use them for scams.
  • WotC will be publishing a content policy (for representation, hateful content, etc.) and hold themselves to it. They cannot hold others to it.
  • The Creative Commons license chosen's lack of sharealike attribution isn't a problem for WotC. They want people to build stuff they own and don't have to share and build value in their own IP. They've chosen the road which gives creators the choice, and can make any of their content sharealike, but WotC isn't forcing them to.
  • CC means that nobody has to take WotC's word for anything as they don't control that license.
  • The drive to change the OGL was coming from various parts of the organization (legal, business, studio). It was an ongoing effort when Brink arrived.
  • The faster the audience grew the bigger the risk that hateful content or scams would arise, so there was a rising sense of urgency to take action.
  • Did anybody sign the v1.1 version? It was distributed with an NDA, and with some creators a discussion about other arrnagements/licenses they might make separate from the OGL.
  • 'The impression someone could get that I have to sign v1.1 is absotely a believable impression for someone to get'.
  • The design of v1.1. was always going to be an ongoing no-signature process.
  • Feedback from larger creators like Kobold Press, the failing is on WotC for not communicating that they were listening. 'Thanks for the feedback' isn't enough.
  • 'If you're going to write a new OGL to protect yourself from the vulnerabilties of the old OGL, you kinda have to take the old OGL off the table, otherwise you're not protecting yourself at all'. There's no point in changing the OGL if you don't de-authorize the old one.
  • They weren't worried about competitors arising from within the community. They love the creator community, and WotC can't satisfy all appetites. That serves the broad needs of the player community.
  • They wanted to have closer relationships with the most successful creators, talking to them about licenses and going bigger. The tiering structure was meant to identify those creators. 'The way it was executed was very cleary going to be an attenuating destructive structure which we did not want.'
  • The OGL survey results were clear, from a range of people, 15000 responses. The intent was to treat it like a playtest but it became obvious where it was going. The survey feedback supported CC, and there was no reason to drag it out.
  • WotC still has their concerns, but their approach to it has changed (to a combo of copyrght/trademark and community).
  • Putting D&D into CC has made de-authing the OGL unimportant to WotC.
  • The SRD will be updated to continue to be compatible with evolving rules.
  • They're looking at adding the 3.5 SRD to the SRD but they have to review that content to make sure they're not accidentally putting stuff into CC.
Company Culture
  • People being afraid to speak up is a sign of 'immature management' and leading from ego.
  • That's not the kind of leaders WotC has today, but Brink cannot speak about those who were there before he arrived.
  • Brink feels that every month he is there people feel more comfortable speaking up, though that doesn't mean they'll always agree. But they will listen.
  • 'That's not how we operate today but I can certainly believe echoes of that in the past'.
VTTs/Digital/DDB
  • Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds are important to the hobby and WotC.
  • WotC is also making digital playspaces. The goal is to give more choice. The way WotC succeeds is if they make the best stuff. It's a 'virtuos' competition.
  • The license that Roll20 etc. has to sell WotC content still applies. Remains to be seen down the road.
  • It's possible that third party content will be seen inside DDB or the VTT but it takes a fair amount of work to being a piece of content in. It would have to be a pretty important piece of third party content. Brink could see a day when that would happen.
One D&D
  • The OGL issue has not impacted the One D&D strategy. It has maybe helped WotC express their plans publicly.
  • D&D should be a living game which evolves but is familiar.
  • The One D&D timeline is not changed, but the playtest timeline was impacted by the OGL situation. They'll get back on track real soon.
  • A professional research team gathers the survey information.
  • There are also internal playtests with robust feedback.
Other
  • The game team has gained more of a voice.
  • More trust has been built between design leadership and the executive team.
  • Dan Rawson's role is new and is the first time the D&D brand has been represented at that level at the executive level.
  • Cynthia Williams is empathetic and data-oriented, and willing to change direction.
  • It sounds like they'd consider the SRD being placed into French, German, Italian, and Spanish, though Brink did not promise.
 

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No. Lets not say that. See moderation.
(snip) I think you should calibrate your sens of humour
I'm not going to change my personal level of sensitivity to find offense. I'd rather not live that way.
You do you, I will do me. We can agree to disagree.
Let us leave it at that.

I had to do it myself over the last years... I am ashamed about the things we deemed funny 25 years ago.
This has nothing to do with anything.
 

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Retreater

Legend
Scary, when it comes to RPGs, is as much in the presentation as it is in the actual stats--actually, more in the presentation. You don't need overpowering monsters; you need really creepy descriptions.
I can understand that, but when it gets to be "all bark - no bite" that's when players begin to not trust the GM and ignore even the most flavorful descriptions.
 

7. As regards the future: He was rather evasive on exactly what the plan is for 1D&D and SRD updates. Which may just mean the plan hasn't been nailed down yet. But he carefully avoided committing to a real 1D&D SRD. He totally ignored the question about whether artificers would be added.
No he committed to updating the SRD to be compatible with 1D&D. He said by either inserting completely new text or using bridge text (species for race as an example). He confirmed this in both interviews.
 

ThorinTeague

Creative/Father/Professor
Just to be clear, Kyle claimed there never was nor never would be a way to "sign" the OGL 1.1. It was to be certified online only. The NDA was signed, and certain partners were offered better terms. I don't know if signatures were involved with those terms or not. He could of course be lying. However,...

...I will say, I have heard a lot about the signature requirement in the leaks, but off all the posts of the leaks have seen, I have never seen an actual leaked document that required a signature. If you have, please provide a link, because I am confused myself. I initially took it as truth because so much else was - however, I haven't seen any proof that the signature line was there. I would love to point to some hard proof that they are lying, but I couldn't find it. At this point it is feeling like a lie or misunderstanding that the 1.1 asked people to sign it.
I'm pretty sure I saw the same leaks you did. I don't have any special or privileged access to information that everybody else doesn't already know. I don't know if I saw scanned documents that actually came off the paper that was sent, or if I saw a digital recreation, or whatever. I remain confident in speculating that if third-party publishers had signed it and agreed to it, that would be the policy for open gaming content today.
 

ThorinTeague

Creative/Father/Professor
oh, you are absolutely correct on that, he does not disagree with that either though.

The distinction between a draft and a final version is precisely that both sides agree to it, nothing else, according to what he said. A draft is an intended / proposed final version, it just turns out to not be accepted by the other side, so you go back to the drawing board.
If the other side had accepted it, that draft would have become the final version by virtue of being accepted, no changes needed.

So they are using draft more in a technical form (the one the businesses use it) than us. That is more a misunderstanding than a lie then.

Also he said that at the time 1.1 leaked that had already been scrapped and they were working on 1.2

So if you're saying 1.1 was a draft by virtue only of the entire community telling wizards of the Coast to get bent, then regardless of the vocabulary word you want to attach I agree and my point remains the same. Wizards of the Coast drafted this license, draft, stream of consciousness, work of fiction, or anything else you want to call it because these are the things they want to bind third party creators to. And that can never happen without shutting down the old open gaming license.

I think probably most of this stuff has ceased to matter as it appears that the majority of third-party publishers have set course for a future without D&D and the open gaming license. I think everybody feels that the open gaming license that the community has trusted for a quarter of a century almost can no longer be trusted, and I think that's completely valid.
 

I don't know if I saw scanned documents that actually came off the paper that was sent
Paper wasn't sent, from what we can tell.

What appears to have happened, as best I can reconstruct is:

1) WotC sends out an email, with both a term sheet attached, and link to the OGL 1.1.

2) The OGL 1.1 is electronic document, which had "comment" text which you could open up by clicking on it.

3) The term sheet was a static document that at least appeared to offer a deal and ask for a signature. Possibly it was presented in a way it could be e-signed but if so any claim it was a "draft" is absolute nonsense.

What we saw was a "digital recreation" of the OGL 1.1, as you put it - specific one that had been made "flat" by presumably copying and pasting all the text into another document - this is likely why the numbering at the very end of the OGL 1.1 is slightly messed-up - it was probably pasted into Word or LibreOffice or some "helpful" (ahem) wp software which tried to "help" with the numbering, and they likely fixed most of it but managed to miss the admittedly slightly confusing stuff involving Roman numerals (for some reason once X gets involved a lot of people start messing up Roman numerals).

It's possible my summary is incorrect but I think 2 and the digital reconstruction is probably correct.
 

BigZebra

Adventurer
And yet, Tyranny of Dragons is probably the most successful module ever written. Keep on the Borderlands maybe about the same level of success. But, Tyranny in one form or another has routinely sat in the top few hundred on Amazon for almost ten years. That's unheard of for a module. I find it rather baffling for people to constantly claim how this is one of the worst modules ever written - I believe someone earlier compared it to "Forest Oracle". Yet, this is THE module. This is the formative adventure for the game. Comparing it to Keep on the Borderlands is not unreasonable at all.
I ran ToD as the first campaign for my group. We really had fun with it. Absolutely loved it. What I really like about WotC 5e modules - especially compared to Paizo's PF1 and PF2 APs is that they aren't padded with as many XP-harvesting encountes as the Paizo ones.
 

And yet, Tyranny of Dragons is probably the most successful module ever written. Keep on the Borderlands maybe about the same level of success. But, Tyranny in one form or another has routinely sat in the top few hundred on Amazon for almost ten years. That's unheard of for a module. I find it rather baffling for people to constantly claim how this is one of the worst modules ever written - I believe someone earlier compared it to "Forest Oracle". Yet, this is THE module. This is the formative adventure for the game. Comparing it to Keep on the Borderlands is not unreasonable at all.
It is pretty funny that Tyranny of Dragons (which I haven't read - or not for years, so won't comment on in detail) wasn't written by WotC at all, but rather by Kobold Press working for WotC.

 

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