D&D General PETITION: Acknowledge Hasbro's hurtful content (Black orcs, Asian yellow orcs, Native American red orcs)—through an Amendatory Bundle [+ thread]

[UngeheuerLich]

While I generally agree to the idea of donating the money, i have big problems with anything waldorf school related.

I also have problems with editing text if you are not the author. I do however think that some pieces are so bad, that it should be taken down. Maybe make a new book out of the salvageable content.

My biggest problem however is that some people including the OP are going way overboard with their demands. A simple apology and a simple action is not enough. The demands read like people should be put on the pillory. I don't think it is the way for more sensitivity. Instead it just makes people build higher walls around their positions.

 

[Oofta]

As written: No, I would not.

I would, however, consider signing a petition asking Hasbro to improve its "content flags," which right now (AFAIK) consist of a blanket note on all old-edition material. That note should remain, but there could be an additional designation for specific works -- basically, "Hey, we know this here is particularly bad, for reasons X, Y, and Z" -- and committing to donate profits from the sale of those works to an appropriate charity.

That still leaves the question of who identifies the works that would get this flag. TSR cranked out a lot of stuff back in the day and I'm not sure it'd be feasible to pay someone to go through all of it. (The Gazetteer example demonstrates how tricky it can be; it's not like you could have found the problem with the orcs by a keyword search.) So perhaps something a bit like the mod system here, where fans can "report" a particular work, describe the problem, and then someone at Wizards has the job of reviewing those reports and determining if the work should indeed be flagged.

Another thing Wizards could do would be to crowdsource the fix, perhaps through the DM's Guild. Encourage fan creation of "cleaned-up" versions of old material, and let fans submit them to be approved for sale alongside the original, so when you go looking for the Gazetteer, it shows you both the old version (with a big ol' warning flag) and the cleaned-up version.

I was trying to think of how to respond to this thread because I don't think WOTC should be responsible for content this old. I also don't think it's possible (or even neccessaily desirable) to expunge everything that could be considered offensive.

Simply put, if we do this where do you stop? Who decides? What edits would be acceptable? I've always found drow problematic and eventually came up with my own lore for them. Should I start a petition to change every book that used them in a way I don't like?

It's not feasible to get rid of everything someone might object to. But create a more detailed disclaimer? Perhaps link to some resources that discuss various thoughts on this topic? That would be feasible and helpful.

I've never actually read the product in question, but there were a lot of things in the past half century that would be questionable now. I don't think we should try to fix them all. Give context and discuss why they're problematic? That I can support.

 

[Reynard]

What does it rank on the Morissette Scale that this thread probably caused more sales of GAZ10 than it has seen in a year?

 

[not-so-newguy]

What does it rank on the Morissette Scale that this thread probably caused more sales of GAZ10 than it has seen in a year?

I signed the petition, but yeah, I think this is probably happening. I also compared the prices of GAZ1 & GAZ10. Gaz1 sells for roughly $12 while GAZ10 sells for roughly $20.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I was trying to think of how to respond to this thread because I don't think WOTC should be responsible for content this old. I also don't think it's possible (or even neccessaily desirable) to expunge everything that could be considered offensive.

I mean, if they're selling it, they're responsible for it. That's the bottom line.

Simply put, if we do this where do you stop? Who decides? What edits would be acceptable? I've always found drow problematic and eventually came up with my own lore for them. Should I start a petition to change every book that used them in a way I don't like?

Who decides? I mean, we do. Things change over time and norms shifts, but the people making that decision is always us, in this moment or the next.

It's not feasible to get rid of everything someone might object to. But create a more detailed disclaimer? Perhaps link to some resources that discuss various thoughts on this topic? That would be feasible and helpful.

Certainly better than doing nothing.

I've never actually read the product in question, but there were a lot of things in the past half century that would be questionable now. I don't think we should try to fix them all. Give context and discuss why they're problematic? That I can support.

There was a thread on it a while ago. @Dungeonosophy went into detail on the content of the book. You might want to look it up, just as a refresher.

 

[Steampunkette]

Simply put, if we do this where do you stop?

Whenever feels right or good enough.

Like I get the implication of this slippery slope argument is essentially leading to Demolition Man where saying a curse word gets you an automatic fine and having sex is illegal.

But it's actually super easy to not slide down the slippery slope into ridiculous extremes. Just ask Garfunkel and Oates.

 

[CleverNickName]

I would like to see an "Orcs of Thar" written from a more serious, more modern perspective. That whole Gazetteer was problematic from cover to cover, but there were nuggets of good stuff hidden in there that could make for an interesting campaign setting or add-on. If not WotC, maybe Goodman Games could put out an updated version, much like they have done with some of the classic Mystara modules? They're one of the few publishing houses that I would trust to get it right.

Off the top of my head: they could get rid of the cartoonish artworks and silly names, and replace it all with crunchy mechanics, timelines and backstory, new maps, new art, and tons of lore on the environment of the Badlands. They could rewrite the orc and clan factions with more modern sensibilities, and like the petition suggests, just drop racial stereotypes wholesale--they contribute nothing good to an otherwise interesting product idea. They could even keep the board game, provided they could eliminate (not dilute, not "tone down," but utterly destroy) the racist tropes, imagery, and names.

TL;DR: Doing this the right way would require a complete rebuild, not a mere "cleanup." It should be unrecognizable from the original, because (flips through the original, gesturing widely).

 

[Vaalingrade]

I mean, if they're selling it, they're responsible for it. That's the bottom line.

Exactly this. If you want to make money from something, it's your responsibility.

You can't say 'the past is the past, get over it' while you're making the past the present for profit.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Ideally, they would retire the old, racist content and move it to a free historical archive for the people saying they want to look at the racist jokes for the historical value.

It's this stuff that keeps Mystara from getting the proper old nostalgia bait treatment.

 

[dave2008]

Whenever feels right or good enough.

Like I get the implication of this slippery slope argument is essentially leading to Demolition Man where saying a curse word gets you an automatic fine and having sex is illegal.

But it's actually super easy to not slide down the slippery slope into ridiculous extremes. Just ask Garfunkel and Oates.

Nice Demolition Man reference - I didn't expect to see that today (or this decade).