D&D General Why a PETITION: Stop Hasbro's hurtful content is a Bad Idea

[Reynard]

I'll reply to your initial reply that you linked.

No, I won't sign. This product was published in 1988. It currently has this disclaimer with it:

Personally I find attempts to revise and hide the past distasteful. Second, I think spending any time re-writing a legacy product that is sub-par in the first place is a waste of limited resources. Third, the logical business decision would instead be to pull this product from distribution completely, and that would not do much more than the first in attempting to hide the past.

1. Hiding history is distasteful -- and dangerous. Letting gross and, frankly, not particularly good or creative things rot in the bin is perfectly acceptable.

2. Agreed. There is no reason to specifically try and "fix" Orcs of Thar. Many, many works have come by since then and done a better job at trying to give "evil humanoids" cultures and stories worth engaging in.

3. I doubt anyone would even notice it disappeared. But then, I also doubt people were buying it in enough quantity that its sales mattered much to anyone.

On the broader debate of "questionable" D&D content and why it is an issue: Liek so much of popular culture some 40 or 50 years ago, D&D was made by people that grew up even earlier. What was socially acceptable was different and rightfully looked askance at today. It does not mean those people were horrible monsters. There is something to be said for "products of their time" -- especially when you consider not just time, but the microcosm of culture that produced them (dominated by middle class, middle American white dudes -- though not exclusively such).

Nostalgia for those things, looked at uncritically, is the real problem here. Go back and watch some of your favorite movies from the 80s. There is some very cringeworthy material in there. Same with the books and music and, yes, games. That is the nature of social change over time. The thing is, we internalize a lot of this stuff and make it part of our identities and even if our larger philosophical perspectives agree with the idea that orcs in yellow face is bad, we respond negatively when something we identify with is called racist, because we feel like we are being called racist -- or sexist, or homophobic, or whatever. Even if the accusation is true and we know it is true, we still feel attacked in a visceral way.

For something like Orcs of Thar, I think it is totally okay for people to petition WotC to take it down from DriveThru. And it is totally okay for people to oppose that request. And it is okay for WotC to make a choice based entirely around their bottom line, and for people to boycott WotC over that choice, etc ad infinitum. What we probably shouldn't do is make judgements about the moral character of folks on whether they would like to see Orcs of Thar pulled or not.

 

[Justice and Rule]

The publication listed in the other thread may be an extreme example, but D&D is littered with this stuff. I don't see much of a slippery slope* here, I see authors that did the best they could to come up with unique monsters. These authors were also products of their time and didn't consider how stuff they did could be offensive.

This was produced in 1988. As old as it is, I do not think it was particularly appropriate when it was produced.

On the other hand, it seems to be virtually impossible to have any species where the default has anything that can be construed in a negative fashion without accusations of racism. So I simply don't see an easy way to fix this.

This feels like a slippery slope argument and really, really ignores the actual context of the book in question. Sure, I suppose you can find fault with any species portrayed, but some are easier to see than others.

Much like the Huckleberry Finn books are banned because they use the "n" word because it was the language of the time even though Jim was a friend and ally of Huck's. But rather than explain how language changes over time, the book is often banned.

Huckleberry Finn's show of racism is a symptom of the world itself and reflective of its time. Orcs of Thar is frankly an insultingly racist pastiche of several cultures. People need to stop bringing very standard defenses given the actual work in question is just not like any of them. I'd get this defense of the Drow, not of what are very bad and offensive racial stereotypes being played for jokes.



Honestly, if we have this conversation, we should really address what @Dungeonosophy wrote as a response:

1. Apologize for the hateful and hurtful depictions and racial slurs found in its GAZ10 PDF product.
2. Donate all of the past proceeds of this PDF—dating all the way back to July 29th, 2014, when the PDF was first offered for sale—to one or more appropriate cultural charities, such as the Lakota Waldorf School.
3. From henceforth, make the PDF "pay what you will," with all proceeds going to such charities, in perpetuity.
4. Note: let it be known to all that I have never called for 'censorship.' Rather than divide the community by yanking and hiding this title in a vault (in the manner of Disney's Song of the South), I call on Hasbro to humbly unite the community in this way:
5. Hire one or more external cultural consultants with real academic credentials, to comb through the book and make a report of the exact nature of its wrongs. Hasbro's own boilerplate disclaimer claims that Hasbro "teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end." So, if Hasbro is here to "teach" us, then let's have the "teaching" done by real teachers with real credentials.
6. Henceforth, bundle this new scholarly report with the GAZ10 PDF, as an educational "teaching."
7. Also make amends from an "in-world" (fictional) perspective: by hiring one or more culturally informed designers (who are either themselves experts in the World of Mystara, or in collaboration with aficionados of that world) to write at least a short re-imagining of the Broken Lands of Thar, whereby the racist crudities found in GAZ10 are revealed to be totally false propaganda by enemies of the peoples of Thar. There are any number of ways in which all of the problematic facets can be completely amended, while creatively preserving and enhancing the existence of the peoples of Thar within the fictional Known World of Mystara.
8. Note: GAZ10 is also advertised as being compatible with the Forgotten Realms and the World of Greyhawk, with a suggested placement in Faerûn's "region of Thar," and/or a magical portal to there, and also to the "WORLD OF GREYHAWK Goblins of the Pomarj, or to Iuz." And so these amendatory actions apply not only to the World of Mystara, but also secondarily to those two worlds as well.
9. Henceforth bundle this amended re-envisioning of the Land of Thar with the GAZ10 PDF, along with the academic/educational report.

Like, they don't even talk about removing it at all. Really they want this stuff to be way, way more focused on being used for education than anything else. They also don't call for any sort of reediting, but actually a revisiting of the setting to do an in-fiction look at these cultures and have an in-world explanation of why these racist ideas were put forward.

Like, to people have any actual specific objections to anything here?

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Actually, it is a Mithril seller. Which means since it was posted in 2014 it has sold more than 2501 sold. https://onebookshelfpublisherservic...5314-Bestseller-metals-and-how-to-earn-badges

Mithril sounds good, but that's a near trivial amount for 8 years of sales.
Edit: Note, since it is not Adamantine, it is less than 5001 sales.

I stand corrected with data

 

[Maxperson]

So I've looked at the other thread and I'm not going to sign the petition, nor am I going to post in that thread at all.

When someone makes a + thread about something like, "How do I create a critical hit system for my game." the "+" is just to keep the argument out and help the person figure out the answer to a problem. Those threads are great. When someone creates a + thread about a topic like this in which you have to post in support of it in some way to even post over there, with dissenters being kicked out, it is quite literally creating an echo chamber and I have no interest in echo chambers.

On the topic of the Orcs of Thar, it has been a while since it has come up here. At that time it was the first that I had heard of that supplement. Most here know that I'm usually against associating fantasy races and such with real world populations based on coincidence and then calling them racist, but when I went to look at what the Orcs of Thar had done I was floored. It was bad and one of the very few instances where I agree with the critics in calling it racist(The Vistani is the other one).

My view is that it should not be banned or re-written. Nor should it be offered for free. I can't remember the name of the guy in the other thread who pointed out that making it free just encourages it to be downloaded more and spread about, but I totally agree with that. It should be sold for some nominal price and the proceeds donated to charity. Do that and keep the disclaimer and that's all that needs to be done.

 

[The Sigil]

Like, they don't even talk about removing it at all. Really they want this stuff to be way, way more focused on being used for education than anything else. They also don't call for any sort of reediting, but actually a revisiting of the setting to do an in-fiction look at these cultures and have an in-world explanation of why these racist ideas were put forward.

Like, to people have any actual specific objections to anything here?

As I mentioned in the thread, I object to (briefly summarized):

• Action Item #1 - My disagreement on this point boils down to a difference of opinion over whether the existing apology (boilerplate) is enough
• Action Item #2 - No objection to the idea of donating profits per se, but I cannot endorse (nor object to) the organizations suggested as I lack sufficient familiarity with them to provide an informed opinion
• Action Item #3 - Making the PDF into PWYW - effectively making the product "free" is likely to magnify the distribution of the problematic ideas in it and I find the goal somewhat inconsistent with goal #2 as it means future donations to the charity of choice are set to near-zero.
• Action Item #7 - I disagree with the premise a Mystara-specific re-write is still needed on the grounds that later, revised publications for "generic" settings should be considered the new standard absent a setting-specific update because I'm not willing to require settings to be supported in perpetuity any time someone finds something to complain about; i.e., this is unneeded as it's effectively already been done in Savage Species and later books.
• Action Item #8 - I disagree with the premise that rewrites for the Realms and Greyhawk are still needed on the grounds that newer, revised publications for these settings have been released that omit the problematic content - again, this is unneeded as it's already been done in 3e and later campaign setting books. (So I guess I don't necessarily disagree with #7 and #8 saying "this material SHOULD be rewritten" but I do feel "the material was ALREADY rewritten so these points are moot and should be removed from the list")

On a note that may or may not be relevant when thinking "products of their time" - in the late 1980's/early 1990's, I found the Julie Brown song "The Homecoming Queen's Got a Gun" hilarious because at the time it seemed so patently absurd. Listening to it five years ago, with the proliferation of school shootings in the US that has occurred in the interim, I found my amused nostalgia turning quickly to unease... because the patent absurdity that made it funny to my generation has been lost. The song hasn't changed - the world has and more importantly, I have - since the song is no longer patently absurd to me, it is no longer funny.

When Orcs of Thar was released, I found the fact that it was done in a humorous style refreshing (as noted elsewhere, sometimes I appreciate D&D not taking itself too seriously - the Book of Wondrous Inventions, also a largely Jim Holloway-illustrated piece, is an example with I think much less racism baked in). In the intervening years, I've found the racist stuff is no longer as funny and I cringe at more of the book than I did as a kid. But again, the book hasn't changed - I have (hopefully for the better).

 

[The Sigil]

When someone makes a + thread about something like, "How do I create a critical hit system for my game." the "+" is just to keep the argument out and help the person figure out the answer to a problem. When someone creates a + thread about a topic like this in which you have to post in support of it in some way to even post over there, with dissenters being kicked out, it is quite literally creating an echo chamber and I have no interest in echo chambers.

Initially I read it this way, but I have since come around to the following (though I don't think it was well-articulated in the original post there).

Premises:
"I think WotC put objectionable, racist content in GAZ10"
"I think it's important to do SOMETHING about it."

Question for Discussion:
"What should I do about it? Here's a nine-point list I've come up with to start the discussion."

You may not agree with the premises, but that's the point of a "+" thread - to set a common "starting point" from which a rational discussion may advance. This is particularly needed when the premises may be subjective so that the thread can stay on-topic. Arguing over whether or not it's worth doing something about, or whether the content is objectionable isn't what the poster is looking to discuss. (Disclosure: I had no idea what a + thread was until this whole thing came up.)

Instead, it's figuring out the "what should I do about it?" piece. Discussing why the various points on the list are good/bad ideas (and why they are), whether it's worth dropping or adding points are all fine - they contribute to the discussion of "what should I do about it?" I imagine if eventually the ideas are shown to be "bad ideas" the discussion doesn't have to stop at "nothing" - instead the discussion could turn from "none of the original ideas you posted are good ones" to "let's find some new ideas that are good."

I suppose that is something of an echo chamber, but if you've already hashed out the subjective questions ("is this content bad" and "is it bad enough I think I should do something about it") there is something to be said to wanting to start threads where these don't have to be relitigated every time.

 

[Justice and Rule]

As I mentioned in the thread, I object to (briefly summarized):

• Action Item #1 - My disagreement on this point boils down to a difference of opinion over whether the existing apology (boilerplate) is enough
• Action Item #2 - No objection to the idea of donating profits per se, but I cannot endorse (nor object to) the organizations suggested as I lack sufficient familiarity with them to provide an informed opinion
• Action Item #3 - Making the PDF into PWYW - effectively making the product "free" is likely to magnify the distribution of the problematic ideas in it and I find the goal somewhat inconsistent with goal #2 as it means future donations to the charity of choice are set to near-zero.
• Action Item #7 - I disagree with the premise a Mystara-specific re-write is still needed on the grounds that later, revised publications for "generic" settings should be considered the new standard absent a setting-specific update because I'm not willing to require settings to be supported in perpetuity any time someone finds something to complain about; i.e., this is unneeded as it's effectively already been done in Savage Species and later books.
• Action Item #8 - I disagree with the premise that rewrites for the Realms and Greyhawk are still needed on the grounds that newer, revised publications for these settings have been released that omit the problematic content - again, this is unneeded as it's already been done in 3e and later campaign setting books. (So I guess I don't necessarily disagree with #7 and #8 saying "this material SHOULD be rewritten" but I do feel "the material was ALREADY rewritten so these points are moot and should be removed from the list")

I appreciate the specificity of your bullet points, as it makes it much easier to engage with. As it stands, I find your differences fairly reasonable, though I think ultimately why @Dungeonosophy wants some of this stuff revisited is to have new and improved Mystara content.

On a note that may when thinking "products of their time" - in the late 1980's/early 1990's, I found the Julie Brown song "The Homecoming Queen's Got a Gun" hilarious because at the time it seemed so patently absurd. Listening to it five years ago, with the proliferation of school shootings in the US that has occurred in the interim, I found my amused nostalgia turning quickly to unease... because the patent absurdity that made it funny to my generation has been lost. The song hasn't changed - the world has and more importantly, I have - since the song is no longer patently absurd to me, it is no longer funny.


When Orcs of Thar was released, I found the fact that it was done in a humorous style refreshing (as noted elsewhere, sometimes I appreciate D&D not taking itself too seriously - the Book of Wondrous Inventions, also a largely Jim Holloway-illustrated piece, is an example with I think much less racism baked in). In the intervening years, I've found the racist stuff is no longer as funny and I cringe at more of the book than I did as a kid. But again, the book hasn't changed - I have (hopefully for the better).

I can certainly relate. I recently looked back a forum I was on back in 2002 and started going back to those topics and threads and... man, it's kind of like putting on the They Live glasses for your past: there is stuff on display so glaring that you're amazed it didn't stop you in your tracks.

 

[Shiroiken]

I mean, they could donate the money to an appropriate charity, like Harper Collins does with Mein Kampf. That would honestly help a bit with the skeeviness. But also just because people might want it is not exactly the best reason to keep producing a racist work.

Then they may as well not provide it. WotC is a business, and thus they have to make a profit. Selling products people want is what businesses do. You may not approve, but that's reality.

I feel like by that logic, the best course of action would be to put nothing on it in the first place, because you could completely undersell how much racist it is anyways. Best to let people decide for themselves, right?

Modern sensibilities require the warning. Just look at Disney with a lot of their older stuff.

If Wizards can't understand and identify the problems with the book, they have much greater problems. Like really, I would trust that Wizards could get someone competent enough to nail most of what is there, and the educational value of putting these warnings and being specific would help people miss the subtle stuff they might not catch amongst the bluntness of the in-your-face stuff.

Given the recent issue with Spelljammer, I wouldn't be so quick to assume they actually understand your concerns.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Then they may as well not provide it. WotC is a business, and thus they have to make a profit. Selling products people want is what businesses do. You may not approve, but that's reality.

Wait, is Harper Collins not a business?

Modern sensibilities require the warning. Just look at Disney with a lot of their older stuff.

Given the recent issue with Spelljammer, I wouldn't be so quick to assume they actually understand your concerns.

I mean, I feel like this is more of a layup than that stuff. Plus if we want them to improve, they have to start somewhere, right? This is basically a game of Tee Ball in that respect.

 

[The Sigil]

I think ultimately why @Dungeonosophy wants some of this stuff revisited is to have new and improved Mystara content.

Have to admit, as someone who grew up on the Mystara setting and mostly enjoys the lore of the setting (in addition to cringing at some of the stuff in Orcs of Thar, I'm not a great fan of "Science Fantasy" aspects - I like to keep my fantasy and my sci-fi separate but some of the Science Fantasy elements are obviously integral to the history of the world so shrug ) I would love to see that myself.