D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

Clint_L

Hero
Things I want to keep about wild shape:

1. Druid tanking as a hit point sponge. It's a different way of tanking, it's an established role that some players clearly enjoy, and is not inherently OP. It just needs to be better tuned.

2. Druids being able to turn into a variety of weak animals to deal with different non-combat situations. Like a becoming a ferret to scoot down a drain, or a spider to crawl up a wall and eavesdrop, that kind of thing.

3. Some variety in combat options so the druid has some choices to make.

4. Druid is unable to speak while wild shaped. Look, players badly pantomiming is comedy gold at the table and I don't want to see it lost.

I don't see why all of that can't be accomplished with some generic template options.
 

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Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
Why not let them choose enhancements every time they shift? The flexibility is a core part of the fun.

I dunno. Why not let Battlemasters have the whole list of maneuvers, or Sorcerers have every metamagic option, or Warlocks every Imvocation?

Whatever the answer is, it’s probably the same here. And if you think the answer is “there isn’t a good reason” then that’s something you’ll have to take up with WotC.

(My personal answer in this case is partly about power, partly about decision complexity…although more because of 5e’s positioning in the market and not as much about my own preference…but mostly because I like the idea that each Druid has their own, iconic form, and aren’t just Swiss Army knives.)
 

mellored

Legend
Ok.
But then the problems of forcing players to look through DM resources... and needing system mastery... and being dependend on DM fiat (which I also have experienced)...

Templates as the default are better. Maybe then have an optional rule to replace the generic blocks with specific animal stat blocks you have encountered. And Still I would replace the animal HP with THP and the animal attacks with beast strike...
I agree.

But for the 2014 version, just changing the bear CR makes druids a lot more balanced.
 

I agree.

But for the 2014 version, just changing the bear CR makes druids a lot more balanced.
My adhoc solutions would have been:

moon druid is druid level/3, round down to the nearest 1/2 CR... this makes level 2 more balanced.
Then I figured, that I wanted half the damage done to the animal form to carry through to the druid...

So maybe, just giving resistance to all damage would be my preferred solution for wildshaping druids. Maybe resistance to p/s/b for all druids and everything except psychic damage for moon druids. That would nicely mirror the barbarian rage.
 

mellored

Legend
I dunno. Why not let Battlemasters have the whole list of maneuvers, or Sorcerers have every metamagic option, or Warlocks every Imvocation?
If it's a spell, you'd need to prepare it.

Also, if it's a spell, land druids could give fighters snake arms. Or give the rogue wolf pact tactics. Or turn the barbarian into a fire elemental.

I like the idea that each Druid has their own, iconic form, and aren’t just Swiss Army knives.
What if regular druids have their own iconic form, but moon druids can go full form manipulation?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
For non-moon druids it was more or less a ribbon ability anyway... so...

Actually, as a person who played a Dream Druid, I disagree. Wildshape had massive utility outside of combat, and since it was an action to transform, it was rarely used in combat. It had two major points though.

1) Becoming tiny to scout was AMAZING. It gave the Druid a lot of flexibility and fun, flavorful things they could do. I particularly enjoyed becoming a spider to fit through cracks and sneak ahead, or becoming a giant snake to move through the swamp. I once became a Jaguar to hunt a scent as well.

2) You could (at a point) become Large, and that had some limited utility as well. I had a player who became a horse and was able to carry an unconcious party member.

Now? The Large utility still exists, but the major use I had for Wildshape is gone. You can still bloodhound with it, but you can't use it to scout ahead. The smallest you can be is small, which is a normal dog size or a baboon. Looking at the MM list? Most animals were tiny, cats, badgers, snakes, hawks, lizards. By moving tiny to 11th and cutting it down to 10 minutes, they've gutted the biggest and most common use for the ability.

edit: I am speaking as DM here and a bystanding player: being able to transform and have so many extra hp felt imbalanced. That everyone compares them to the barbarian is in my opinion rather proving my point, not theirs. It is too much.

5THP per level for a moon druid seems quite appropriate. I'd even say WIS bonus + 4THP for everyone, WIS bonus +6 THP for moon druids. Of course youbare knocked out of wildshape when your THP are lost.

A little boost at level 1 and 2, because 5 hp feels a bit too low at level 1 for me.

I'd also add WIS bonus to concentration saves. I really hate melee characters woth concentration spells not being able to hold them 40% of the time.

The problem for me is that we keep trying to make it a combat ability. It is for Moon druids, but for every single other type of Druid, Wildshape was not a good combat move. Because of the Action economy. But now? Now they are forcing it to be a combat tool, because of the level 5 multi-attack. But they are still making it an action.

And that will never work. Just look at the Devotion Paladin, they changed the blessed weapon channel divinity because no one used an action at the start of combat to activate it. Rage would be terrible if it took an action to activate. Ect Ect ECt.

Additionally, my Dream Druid did end up fighthing in Giant Snake form... and I really found myself wishing the enemy would go ahead and knock me out of it so I could be more effective. I'd gone from 18 AC to 12 AC, from dealing 13 damage at-will to 5 damage at-will, from a +7 to hit, to a +4 to hit. In every conceivable way, it was worse than just being myself. But I didn't want to waste the wildshape until it was used up, because hey, 13 extra hp was decent. But the enemy didn't even bother attacking me, because I wasn't enough of a threat to warrant attacking.

Treating Wildshape like a combat option is, I think, a mistake. Unless you are willing to make the Moon Druid's bonus action shift universal.


Also, side note, your suggesting for Temp HP MAXES at 9, and knocks them out of the shape when they lose it? You do realize that if you want a 12th level Druid to use wildshape in combat, you are asking them to use their action to gain 9 temp hp, lose their AC, and then basically immediately lose the form when they get hit because NOTHING at that level is going to hit them for less than 9 damage. It is an utter waste of time,
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
This is as far as I can see not in any way looking at the effect of the added abdurartion/healing capability? That was what I wondered if anyone had looked into trying to quantify. So I now have time to make a simple attempt. assuming 8 hp per spell level from cure wounds we look at a 32 buffer per long rest without upcasting. The upcasting is very lackluster if CW is not reworked. But still at 4th level if assuming the caster is only burning slots on CW there is an extra 36 hp to fetch there. Assuming the options in PHB is representative of what the Druid HP buffer was intended to be, the CR1 monsters hover around 30hp with dire wolf being the tankiest with 37 (and 14 AC). It hence seem that even if burning trough all spell slots, and sacrificing 7 standard actions the Druid still do not get up to 5ed standard when it come to durability while in beast shape. (Taking into account 2 beast shapes per short rest)

I'm not sure the intent you are going for here, but I do want to note. Any ability to cast spells in beast shape does not confer more value to the ability to take beast shape. Because you can still cast those spells outside of beast shape. Every cure wounds the Druid casts while transformed could have more easily been cast while not transformed. This is why I'm really not super concerned with measuring the spell power in Beast Shape, because it doesn't balance it.

As I tried to state in the post you reply to. I do believe they tried to replace it. However as the calculation above indicate, that replacement seem far from adequate if the intention was to provide the same overall balancing as 5ed (not to mention it is only made for Moon druids). I think we hence actually might agree on basic principle, but are speaking a bit past each other as we use wildly different rethorics. I think we are in a better position to effect change if we try to identify what they might have tried to do, and suggest changes in a similar vein (hence my suggested double self healing, bonus action, extended to all druids suggestion), rather than proposing something completely different to try fix it.

However I think at this point it might be better for them to accept losing out on some of the simplifications I think they were aiming at and introduce a scaling hp formula in the stat block; like 5 x proficiency bonus, tripled for moon druid (removing the abduration casting).

Ah, I get your intent. Yeah, I don't think the scaling for these current beast shapes work, but I'm almost more concerned about making sure the ability works for Non-Moon druids than worrying about Moon Druids, because Moon Druids are an easier fix.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Ok.
But then the problems of forcing players to look through DM resources... and needing system mastery... and being dependend on DM fiat (which I also have experienced)...

Templates as the default are better. Maybe then have an optional rule to replace the generic blocks with specific animal stat blocks you have encountered. And Still I would replace the animal HP with THP and the animal attacks with beast strike...

I can 100% agree that the generic statblock templates are a good move. In fact, if you just told me that in a vacuum you could choose a template and a size, and flavor the rest? I'd be incredibly happy with that change.

But Non-Moon Druids cannot effectively use Wild Shape in combat as long as it costs an action. Even if they wanted to, it could be incredibly easy to point out that the vast majority of a Druid's most useful things are concentration action spells they cast at the start of combat. Would you rather lose AC and maybe gain some temp hp as an action... or grant every single ally advantage on every single attack against multiple enemies? Or restrain multiple enemies so that they cannot effectively fight your allies? Or summon a swarm of allies to support your team in combat?

So, you start by casting a spell as your action, then your second action would be to wild shape? Which means you aren't using the wildshape in combat until Round 3? That's far too slow. But they are also incentivizing exactly that, because at level 5 you get multi-attack, for all druids, in wildshape. Which tells them they should be using their turn to transform.


Moon druids using wildshape in combat? Okay, we can balance that. But normal druids? It doesn't work, unless we make all wildshapes a bonus action. Which means that for Normal Druids, we should be looking at Wildshape as a utility ability, and that highlights how utterly it fails in the role.
 

Clint_L

Hero
Non-moon druids shouldn't be using wild shape as a combat option outside of unusual circumstances, in which cases sacrificing an action plus concentration might be the choice you have to make. For them, wild shape should continue to be primarily an exploration/problem-solving tool, IMO. That's why I think it needs to keep options like tiny size, spider climb, etc. at low levels. It's fun and unique.

As to the question posed above, "I dunno. Why not let Battlemasters have the whole list of maneuvers, or Sorcerers have every metamagic option, or Warlocks every Imvocation?" Because they're not druids. The flexibility of wild shape has been an established part of the class for all of 5e (and prior to 5e) for that matter. Why not let druids have maneuvers or invocations?
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Things I want to keep about wild shape:

1. Druid tanking as a hit point sponge. It's a different way of tanking, it's an established role that some players clearly enjoy, and is not inherently OP. It just needs to be better tuned.

For Moon Druids, I agree. I don't think I want this for all druids, as it works very poorly with the established action economy

2. Druids being able to turn into a variety of weak animals to deal with different non-combat situations. Like a becoming a ferret to scoot down a drain, or a spider to crawl up a wall and eavesdrop, that kind of thing.

For all druids, I agree

3. Some variety in combat options so the druid has some choices to make.

Maybe. I don't mind Moon Druids focusing on shapeshifting for combat, and normal druids focusing on either spells or weapons for combat. They have options as it stands, all of the options are just... mediocre. (Why are druid ranged cantrips worse than everyone except bards? Why does Shillelagh scale so poorly when Clerics get improved melee options?

So, I want them to have more variety, but I want to support the same variety that other classes get in their options, while having Moon Druids shapeshift and maul.

4. Druid is unable to speak while wild shaped. Look, players badly pantomiming is comedy gold at the table and I don't want to see it lost.

Nope, this is a good change. Sure, it could be comedic, but it also could get very frustrating and often felt like you needed a person who could cast Speak with Animals to participate in the discussion and then you are playing telephone where you can only talk to one other character who has to explain what you said to the others.

I'm fine giving up 10 minutes of charades for ease of character concepts. Besides, there is also comedy in "wait, did that squirrel just talk?!" so it isn't like you can't still find humor in the game.
 

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