D&D (2024) New Wild Shape

[Bill Zebub]

I've played a barbarian, am playing one right now actually, and the bigger problem isn't that someone might step up and do the strong man stuff, it is that I can't effective due the strong man stuff better than just having athletics proficiency. Because if I do so, then I am making myself useless for combat.

I've been saying on these forums forever that martial abilities should not be x times/rest, but should rather be gated by risk/reward (like Reckless Attacks) or situational (like Sneak Attack). So, yeah, the barbarian should be able to go RAARRRRGGGHHHH and pull the cart out of the ditch, without it costing a resource they might want to save for a fight.

 

[Stalker0]

Maybe the simplier idea is to go back to the older wildshape but put an hp cap on it ar the lower levels. That way you can’t be a 2nd level Druid with 3x the hp of any other character.

At low levels the forms provide some hp buff but not a ton, and then eventually you get full access to the forms hp at a level where it’s no longer game breaking, just a “solidly cool feature”.

 

[Enrahim2]

Maybe the simplier idea is to go back to the older wildshape but put an hp cap on it ar the lower levels. That way you can’t be a 2nd level Druid with 3x the hp of any other character.

At low levels the forms provide some hp buff but not a ton, and then eventually you get full access to the forms hp at a level where it’s no longer game breaking, just a “solidly cool feature”.

The problem is that while I agree the overly high HP buffer gain at low levels are anoying, that pales compared to the issue with the entire feature rellying on a growing pool of material designed, balanced and intended for DMs. Just capping of hp like you suggest is easy. It is solving getting rid of the MM dependency that is hard.

 

[OB1]

Is that solely by running away and not provoking opportunity attacks? Because otherwise I don't see how this lets you keep up a concentration spell. And a form whose main use is "I got hurt, but I kept my spell up, so I need to run away, so I'm going to use my action to transform" seems like it has to hit a lot of gates to get used.



How is this better before a combat than casting a battlefield control spell? And if you are planning on leaving it during combat, why go into it in the first place? Is the sole plan here for stealth and ambush tactics? Because... firstly, Pass without Trace, and secondly, you would rarely want to initiate combat from stealth unless the rest of the party was near.

Sure, for a stealth situation, this can be good, but I'm not sure this will see much use. I mean, attacking from stealth with a d8 isn't great, and 1d4 + poison condition could be good, but I'm not sure how it is better than hitting a group of enemies with a 1st turn entangle.



This is the main thing I want the druid to do, but I don't think 1 hp and no ability to attack is quite fun. I don't want them to have a lot of damage, but being able to do some damage means they can pull some tricks.



See, this is where my experience just runs counter to your design. As a druid, I never wanted to conserve spell slots. I had too many spell slots as it was. I can't imagine the scenario. Also, again, this takes your full action. You are spending an entire turn doing nothing but assuming this form. Mid-combat? The design of many classes and many abilities over 5e have shown us that using an action for a self-buff is undesirable by many many players. You need to be able to take an action that affects the battle now, not next turn.

Also, one of the things I honestly do love about the current One DnD Druid is that they can go large from 1st level. This allows them to do things like turn in an ox and pull a cart out of the mud, or other utility options that are just fun or travel related. I don't want to wait for level 5 for that, if I don't have to,



If you want control... you are a druid. Battlefield control is the only thing you are really good at as a caster. And sure, grabbing a huge monster in a grapple is fun, but... is that worth spending an entire action to set up? I don't think it is.

And this is the thing I keep butting up against with the idea of using wildshape effectively in combat. Either you give up casting your spells before the fight, you skip your first turn, or you skip your second turn. And nothing that would be balanced to take the form of as a bonus action, is worth skipping your turn to accomplish.

And this is why keeping the Druid wildshape as currently designed in 5e is probably the best solution. Too many players playing the class too many different ways (all valid) for any kind of template structure to work. I wrote this for how I've seen a Druid played, but that doesn't begin to cover the wealth of options for the class. Perhaps the only thing really needed is @Clint_L 's suggestion regarding lowering the CR of Moon Druids in early levels (if people are truly concerned about Druid being OP at that point).

 

[Bill Zebub]

My current group has a druid who doesn't have an optimizer bone in her body. She picks animal forms based on what is happening in the story, without worrying about stat blocs. (And sometimes it's hilarious, like the time she turned into a cow during a bar fight.)

The thing is, sometimes the animals she chooses have really bad stats, and sometimes she struggles with her choice because she also wants to support the team.

And then, of course, there's the pause in the game where we have to go find out what the stats for that animal are.

Templates would be great for her. She could pick whatever animal she wanted for RP reasons and not worry that it has a sub-optimal stat bloc.

 

[Remathilis]

So I've been digesting all this for the past week, and I want to toss out my thoughts as someone who never really played a druid but saw a few played.

1. If I wild shape into an animal, I want to do animal things. The new blocks don't feel like an animal enough. If you took away the "animal" description, you are just getting a minor buff in combat at cost based of your other features. I want to feel a little more animalistic when in this shape.

2. You lose too much as written. I turn into an animal of the land and my AC drops, I lose my save and skill proficiencies, I lose access to species traits like Lucky or fire resistance. I get it is to simplify the stat block, but animal shape shouldn't make you easier to kill.

3. Most alternative forms go online too late. Aquatic form comes long after you can water breathe or alter self. Aerial form long after fly is an option, and tiny far too late. It's even sillier when you think how tritons and sea elves can't wild shape under water without drowning. Realistically, aquatic should be around 3-5 level, aerial 5-7, tiny 7-9.

4. Moon needs its own unique stat block that is a strict upgrade from the base form. Let them form a giant/dire version with higher damage, better AC, some type of temp hp/DR, etc. If they need a balancing factor, make it a shorter duration.

5. Other options should be buffed. Healing blossoms is too weak, familiar is good but not really repeatable. Ideally, each subclass should give you a new feature as well. Spore zombies, summoning firebirds, constellation forms, etc. As I stated, moon should get its dire wild shape.

6. Lastly, I think a normal druid shouldn't pull tank duty. That's the role for moon druids. I got no problem with regular druid wild shape being more akin to a rogue or ranger in melee; skirmisher rather than tank.

The idea is solid, but the execution needs work..

 

[mellored]

They are hitting the notes well enough. But once we open the door to "but we could get more specific" we are going to end up right back at the idea of just using the monster statblocks and limiting it by CR, because there are too many things people might want to do, that would deserve separate concepts.

Would it really be that many features?
I'm thinking there's only 12 or so. That could be only 3 features over 4 sub-class levels.

Let's brainstorm a list of animal features a druid may want.
-size
-movement
-reach
-grapple/shove
-constrict
-poison
-shell (AC)
-web
-swallow
-elemental damage
-elemental resistance

Thats 11. Is that everything?

 

[mellored]

A bit unrelated.

But I want a blossom druid who can wild shape into a tree.

 

[MarkB]

Would it really be that many features?
I'm thinking there's only 12 or so. That could be only 3 features over 4 sub-class levels.

Let's brainstorm a list of animal features a druid may want.
-size
-movement
-reach
-grapple/shove
-constrict
-poison
-shell (AC)
-web
-swallow
-elemental damage
-elemental resistance

Thats 11. Is that everything?

Special senses. The templates cover darkvision and keen senses, but there are also a couple more specialised ones like blindsight for bats. Not sure offhand if there are any beasts with tremorsense.

For me, having some decent base statblocks and then being able to add one, maybe two special features to it to represent my specific animal choice would go a long way towards being more like the druid's traditional versatility.

 

[Gorck]

Would it really be that many features?
I'm thinking there's only 12 or so. That could be only 3 features over 4 sub-class levels.

Let's brainstorm a list of animal features a druid may want.
-size
-movement
-reach
-grapple/shove
-constrict
-poison
-shell (AC)
-web
-swallow
-elemental damage
-elemental resistance

Thats 11. Is that everything?

A lot of Druids go wolf so they can trip. My Moon Druid uses brown bear, not so much for the HP, but for the extra attack.