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D&D General How would you redo 4e?

I ran my dwarf Artificer from level 1 through 20 completely flavoured as a runecaster (pulling inspiration from the description of the forging of Aegis Fang), and it worked splendidly. Protection and etc were runes inscribed on armour and weapons, he broke runic tablets for his infusions, punishing eye became this giant floating rune... it ran great and was a lot of fun.

Not that a proper, additive, 'language' system of runes that could cause different effects and bonuses wouldn't be awesome too! (Though, perhaps in some ways it's similar to the psionics idea of a base thing that gets augmented/combined?) But without needing a full new class the flavour of what the Artificer (mostly) does lends itself already well to a rune-augmenting class. :)
I like my HoML idea for this. There are 'boons', and many of them are Rituals (they grant rituals), and a lot of rituals can be acquired ala 4e as 'minor boons' too. So, when you want to use a ritual, you have 2 choices, you can simply perform it, or you can 'instantiate' it into a consumable form (ala 4e scrolls). Beyond that, permanent magic items are simply permanent instantiations, so you could enchant your sword Until the Next Rest, but you could also enchant your sword permanently. Either way you get the benefit, the duration is just different.

So, you can easily flavor this as a runic system. 'lesser runes' fade once used, and 'greater runes' don't. It would be interesting to layer on a rider effect, and that would allow creating a class like Runepriest. Once you call on the power of a rune, you get its rider (the rider of its type). As a rewrite of the item/ritual system I think the HoML version would actually work quite well in 4e.
 

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MwaO

Adventurer
I mean, there are other feats which carry the tag [Multiclass Barbarian] etc. Usually these involve Paragon Multiclassing or the like, but they do exist. If you could only take one feat with the [Multiclass <Class>] tag, those subsequent feats couldn't exist. Since they do, the presence of the [Multiclass <Class>] tag alone is not enough to say that you can't take more.

But ultimately we agree: Nothing in the rules says you can't take more than one multiclass feat for the same class, if you so desire, and any 4e DM should generally rule that that is acceptable because...it doesn't break anything and is honestly fine.
Yup, I think though that it is more clear than that — the general rule is you can take feats as long as you qualify for them. The restrictions of multiclass feats doesn't conflict with that in the slightest for taking more than one.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I don't consider Essentials classes to be separate from their base class. They're still the base. E.g., you can't multiclass between any of Slayer, Knight, and Weaponmaster. So all of those Essentials variants are out. Likewise, all hybrids are out.
Bard and Skald beg to differ...
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Bard and Skald beg to differ...
I'm not sure why? The Skald multiclass feat, Master of Stories, has the tag [Multiclass Bard.] You cannot take multiclass feats for your own class--not even as a Bard. There are, however, ways around this: there are (effectively) "power-swap" feats to get Essentials-type powers as a non-Essentials subclass. You can spend a feat on Skald's Training, to let you swap Majestic Word for Skald's Aura. But that's it. You can't get any of the other Skald features besides Skald's Aura, and you don't actually count as a Skald for any purpose. (This is only relevant for Half-Orc Bards, because it means a Half-Orc Bard with Skald's Training qualifies for Inspiring Fury, which requires Skald's Aura but does not require actually being a Skald.

Multiclass Versatility, the feature which lets Bards (but not Skalds) take MC feats from more than one class, does not affect the restriction that you cannot take MC feats from your own class.
 



Kannik

Hero
I'm OLD, and I started back at the beginning of all this ;)
Excellent! We can reminisce and share together!

Yeah, again, I think the existing class, theme, feats, and background are pretty much adequate to this task.
Thinking more about what I'd written earlier, I think it could work quite well with 4 main bits: Ancestry (physical origins), Origin (background/culture of growing up), Theme (profession/other things theme was used for), and Class. Both Origin and Theme would have a description and would/could act like a trained skill in the situations (some of which are detailed in the description) where a DM wants a roll for something where it could apply.
Now, here I'm a bit different. I see the skills more as 'approaches' to how you typically solve problems. So the guy who uses moves based primarily on strength, in a loose sense, is solving problems with athletic means. The guy who relies on sheer quickness and agility is doing 'acrobatic' stuff. I admit, these two are somewhat closely related, but it still feels like there's a decent flavor difference (and I'm not looking for realism, but more for portrayal). In the case of Diplomacy and Intimidate, they are just DIFFERENT approaches! I wouldn't combine them. And I don't see what Bluff and Thievery have in common at all. Someone MIGHT be a 'scoundrel' and rely on a mix of the two, but its equally possible I'm all bluff and I have no thieving skills at all. Or conversely my thieving is right out there in the open and no deception is required. I wouldn't consider tricking someone with sleight-of-hand 'bluff' either, really. The more I thought about it when I wrote up the HoML skill list the less I wanted to change the 4e one.
Oh, if we're going approaches... I'm all in, a la FATE Accelerated! (Also been using Approaches + Roles + Distinctions in a game we're running in Cortex Prime and it's been awesome.) Hmmm, it's interesting that you see the skills as the approaches, and not the attributes, which I think is how I had it in my mind. Plus the skills are kind of all over the place, like how would the knowledge skills be an approach? But also the attributes themselves don't all line up well with approaches. (Though that brings up an interesting idea to get rid of skills and go with a d20 Modern-ish approach where you get trained in a particular attribute and forgo skills entirely -- doubt that would ever fly with most players but its an interesting thought).

I prefer broad skills that can be applied in different ways, and I have no problem with them being broad as a player can always say "my character is no good at this" if they want to limit it. We give you the keys to the kingdom; what's interesting is where you limit yourself to create character. Even if the attributes in D&D are not that great as a bunch of distinctions, under this model the approach is the attribute, and the knowledge/training/area of expertise are the skills.

If going with the reverse, I'd say that firstly everyone should get enough skill picks to allow them to make an interesting set of choices and mix (allowing a flat pick of 4-5 skills per character seems to be a popular 4e house rule), and secondly there needs to be some crossover between Acrobatics and Athletics given the artificial way D&D handles the STR/DEX divide. (From my experience as a rock climber, martial artist, and etc I would assert they are much more closely related -- you may use more power or more finesse to do something, but the somethings you do are quite similar. Plus, it makes for the funny reversal situation that many rogues end up being poor at climbing walls, despite that under 1e they were the only class that could do it!)

MCing is MUCH MUCH BETTER than most 'charops' and casual players seem to think. Giving the ability to just swap without any cost is actually pretty OP. I know MOST people here will probably not agree, but I know @MwaO has stated this same opinion. I would agree though that PMC sucks, though there might be a very few specific ones that are OK. Certainly the hybrid rules killed PMC stone cold dead, and its easy to see why.
Perhaps; I didn't dig too deep into the MC feats after the PHB came out, so there may be more stuff in future books that are serious imbalances. At the time (prior to deep system exploration) it seemed like it could create some fun distinctions, but since it didn't super mesh with the rest of your class abilities it mostly provided some flexibility rather than power.
As with MCing though, Hybrid characters can be quite 'gifted', and there are some fairly obvious build patterns that are almost too good to pass up if hybrid rules are being used. Such as taking a hybrid in Shielding Swordmage if you have INT as your primary. Warlock can be pretty potent as well, as can Paladin. I wouldn't call these characters 'broken' exactly, but clever builds can be pretty interesting...
Absolutely. More than once when I was DMing I'd casually suggested a hybrid idea to a player who ran with it and who then, later, would foil my plans or current action, and I'd jokingly say "Who told you to play that character? Oh, right, I did...." Loved it every time. :D
 

Kannik

Hero
4E did "Draw Maps But Leave Blank Spaces" and "Ask Them Questions Then Build Upon the Answers" before it was cool. 😏
I do sometimes wonder if, at the same time they'd released all the other core books, a Nentir Vale sourcebook (with still explicit holes!) had been released containing all the flavour (a rulebook and a flavour book) if that would've made any difference. Likely not to those who hardcore disliked everything about it before it was even released, but if there were any on the fence and who felt the designers were abandoning all story (rather than assuming that everyone would equally assume that, since story has always been part of the game, and there's tonnes of lore out there already, that it's still gonna be part of the game), maybe would have made a difference?
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I'm more partial to 4 pure classes for each main power source and a few dual power source classes if class powers are kept.

  • Arcane
    • Pure: Bard, Swordmage Warlock Wizard,
    • Half: Sorcerer (Elemental) Artificer (Divine)
  • Divine
    • Pure: Avenger Cleric Invoker Paladin
    • Half: Runepriest (Elemental), Monk (Divine)
  • Martial
    • Pure: Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Warlord
    • Half: Assassin (Shadow), Berserker (Primal) Skald (Primal)
  • Primal
    • Pure: Barbarian Druid Shaman Warden
    • Half: Berserker (Primal), Skald (Primal)
  • Psionic
    • Pure: Ardent Battlemind Psion Soulknife
    • Half: Monk (Divine), Pyro (Elemental)
But I'd prefer general trimmed down Source power lists and make classes deteremine whiich power source you have access to and which role you get.
 


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