The Last of Us (HBO Max)

Synthesizing a cure -- if there even is a cure, which seems extremely optimistic (we know how HIV works and it's taken decades to get as close as we have to a vaccine, with many more resources poured into it than they can in Last of US , even counting the dismal initial efforts in fighting AIDS in the 1980s) -- requires a lot more than what we see in and around that hospital. It's an incredibly fragile and resource-intensive process, including needing a ton of highly trained human beings, most of which have been eaten long before Joel starts shooting the remaining ones.

You're comparing a cure for a virus to a fungal infection.

Apples to apples.

Let's pretend there are still one million people living in what used to be the United States.

The purported cure stops people from getting infected (it doesnt cure the already infected as far as I can tell). Bites from infected turn from 'always lethal' to 'painful and annoying'. The infected can be safely hunted down and killed with far less risk than at present, and an encounter with one is much more likely to wind up with the human still alive.

No more people get turned into Zombies. The Fungus is on a one-way ticket to extinction.

The choice isn't between killing Ellie and a cure. It's a choice between killing Ellie and a remote possibility of a cure.

That's not the choice Joel has to make.

The choice is 'murder a bunch of people in a mass shooting spree, lie to Ellie, deprive her of agency and the choice she likely would have made herself, and potentially doom humanity - and millions of people - to the zombie apocalypse' vs 'leave her to die at the hands of the Fireflies, who might potentially be able to save humanity and millions of innocent people via her death'.

That's Joels choice.
 

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Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
After all the Firefly’s been through I don’t blame them for trying. After everything Joel has been through I don’t blame him either. It’s an interesting dilemma.
Yeah, I think the key thing is it's a dilemma. I don't think it's meant to be a clear cut case.

I am probably pretty close to torn on the issue, but my wife said she'd kill everyone on the planet if it were her kid, surrogate or otherwise, so I think there's a lot more people who agree with Joel's point of view than may be coming forward to say so.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
The purported cure stops people from getting infected (it doesnt cure the already infected as far as I can tell).
Terminology check: That makes it a vaccine, not a cure. And it's an important difference.
Bites from infected turn from 'always lethal' to 'painful and annoying'. The infected can be safely hunted down and killed with far less risk than at present, and an encounter with one is much more likely to wind up with the human still alive.

No more people get turned into Zombies.
Eventually, assuming nothing else happens in the meantime, like a particularly bad strain of flu or a terrible winter that kills off the crops, etc.

But if all of that happens -- and it's a big, big "if," given that medieval Europe had several times it was pushed to the brink, with many more resources than the post-apocalyptic US on the show has -- yes, in years or decades, the fungus would be wiped out.

Unless, of course, it mutates again.
That's not the choice Joel has to make.

The choice is 'murder a bunch of people in a mass shooting spree, lie to Ellie, deprive her of agency and the choice she likely would have made herself, and potentially doom humanity - and millions of people - to the zombie apocalypse' vs 'leave her to die at the hands of the Fireflies, who might potentially be able to save humanity and millions of innocent people via her death'.

That's Joels choice.
I'm not saying I agree with Joel's choice, but no one is giving Ellie a choice, so he doesn't come out worse here than the Fireflies do. We don't really know what choice she would make (yet) because no one has been willing to ask her.

So, his decision is "do I kill these people who are mostly strangers, and a frenemy of mine, or do I save the life of this girl I love."

He is a profoundly broken person who has chosen violence for more than a decade at this point as one of his ways of medicating. He has decided, incorrectly as we see, that he's fixed now because of Ellie, and the moment that's threatened, he goes completely off the rails again.

TV watchers, and maybe game players, don't know enough about these other characters to know about their level of dysfunction, but we know that Joel is a mess. I think Marlene realized in the waiting room that entrusting Ellie to Joel would inevitably lead to a situation like this, since she appears to know at least somewhat about his past.

The story is a tragedy all around. And like the best tragedies, everyone is doing what they think is the right or only choice in the moment, even when an outside observer can see otherwise.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
He is a profoundly broken person who has chosen violence for more than a decade at this point as one of his ways of medicating. He has decided, incorrectly as we see, that he's fixed now because of Ellie, and the moment that's threatened, he goes completely off the rails again.
I don't think it's a question of his suspicion of others or violence that he has been fixed of - it's being suicidal and living a lonely, purposeless life as a broken man in the wake of his daughter's death. That has been cured. He's got a purpose now and it's to be Ellie's father.
 

Bolares

Hero
To me, Marlene is just one step away from becoming like that other rebel leader in Kansas City. Sure, her reason for denying the daughter of her best friend the choice to sacrifice herself is “better” than Joel’s reason to go on a murder spree, but she still did that. She also is recruiting kids to fight and make pipe bombs in her war. Being more noble than Joel, who is a selfish monster (even he recognizes that), is a pretty low bar.


Loved seeing Laura Bayley getting a cameo too.
 



Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
I don't think it's a question of his suspicion of others or violence that he has been fixed of - it's being suicidal and living a lonely, purposeless life as a broken man in the wake of his daughter's death. That has been cured. He's got a purpose now and it's to be Ellie's father.
An addict (which is how he behaves) replacing one obsession with another isn't cured.
 

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Now, broadly speaking about season 2… I think they will tone down the violence porn even more than they did here
I haven't played the game, but I'm not squeamish about games with violence.

I don't think showing more, or showing it more explicitly, would have added much to this show. We don't need to see a close-up of Joel starting to pop out someone's kneecap to understand he's doing it or how awful it is.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Now, broadly speaking about season 2… I think they will tone down the violence porn even more than they did here
No spoilers but the second game works much better with less gratuitous violence so probably true. Though I didn’t think season 1 was over the top. Joel’s worst scenes were still shocking. YMMV
 

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