The Last of Us (HBO Max)

[Flamestrike]

I think that's a simplistic, surface-level read on the themes of TLOU2.

Agreed. It's about how everyone is the protagonist and the hero from that person's perspective.

Really the end of the TV show was basically the exact plot of the movies Taken or Commando.

Hero saves daughter from captors, murdering a ton of people on the way.

We're used to seeing the above from the 'Hero's' perspective and viewing massacres and mass killings of faceless goons uncritically.

I always ask people to look at TLOU (game or TV series) from Marlenes perspective. She's trying to save the world from the Zombie Apocalypse, and fight against a tyrannical Fascist State, making huge personal sacrifices to get there, and losing lots of people along the way (both to the Zombies and to the Fascists).

Finally, after decades of struggle, she's presented with a likely vaccine for the infection, and a means to end both the Infected and the Fascists for good in one fell swoop.

The key is the daughter of her best friend (a friend who she reluctantly had to shoot after becoming infected herself, in tragic circumstances). The experts tell her that the daughter (Ellie, 14) will not survive the operation to extract the vaccine.

Knowing that Ellie would volunteer to sacrifice herself for the future of humanity, she reluctantly opts to allow the surgery to be performed on Ellie while she is unconscious and unaware of her impending death, to spare her the pain or suffering of having to make it.

Nek Minute, some crazed gunman kills her entire operation, slitting the throats of incapacitated freedom fighters and people who have surrendered, murders the one remaining Doctor who knows how to actually make the vaccine, abducts and hides the only cure, and despite Marlene offering the gunman a chance at redemption, nonetheless blows Marlenes brains out as she begs for mercy.

It's all a matter of perspective, as the second game tries to show us. Which of course makes the angry reactions to it from incel edgelords all the more hilarious.

 

[Bolares]

No, again that was not his choice. His choice was 'Do I murder these people, AND save the life of the girl I love, potentially dooming the entire Human race in the process'.

people keep talking about choice. There was no choice, there was no doubt, there was no other option. This girl rescued Joel from himself, made him "whole" again. She is his daughter. He will not loose another daughter because a military group decided that murdering her is for the better. JOEL WILL NOT LOOSE A DAUGHTER AGAIN.

There is no morality, there is no world to be saved, there is nothing else that mathers, Joel will not loose Ellie, at whatever cost.
And THAT (among other things) is what makes him a monster.

 

[Bolares]

He wasn't condemning anyone to death by getting the macguffin for Kang. Kang just wanted to leave his prison. As it turns out, the fact Kang did NOT leave his prison looks to be something that is going to lead to a lot more deaths than if he did get out (as Kang explained to Ant man, and as Scott himself pondered at the films end).

In any event I'm pretty sure he recanted and stopped Kang from leaving, while saving his daughter in the process, and not engaging in a mass shooting spree.

Different context, and different outcome.

how about we stop spoiling a movie that has nothing to do with this series?

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Good show overall, definitely very rushed at places, and Joel's massacre at the end felt a bit out of place in the context of the series.

The game is already so cinematic that it's very easy to compare it to the show, I think that hurt it for me.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

It is great that a new generation of viewers can join the Joel alignment wars, at least.

 

[Gradine]

I really do think that the show captured that ending rampage well; Joel's just in an absolute fugue state, and the game really makes you feel it at that point as well

 

[Bolares]

I really do think that the show captured that ending rampage well; Joel's just in an absolute fugue state, and the game really makes you feel it at that point as well

The most important shot (haha) is the one where the dude lays down his weapon and Joel still kills him.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

My issue with it is mostly that show Joel had been more realistic until that point, killing so many armed people by himself seemed a bit much for him. In the game, you spend the whole time killing bandits, soldiers and infected by the dozens, so you're more used to it at that point.

 

[payn]

The most important shot (haha) is the one where the dude lays down his weapon and Joel still kills him.

I think that was important to show Joel was in rampage mode and that all these folks were threats to Ellie as long as they are alive from his perspective.

 

[Flamestrike]

It is great that a new generation of viewers can join the Joel alignment wars, at least.

NE.

Repeatedly engages in cold blooded murder and torture of non-combatants and those at his mercy, uses both as a solution to his problems, has little issue potentially dooming the entire world to extinction for his own reasons = E.

Not particularly driven to either individualism and liberty or strict order and tradition = N

A neutral evil character is typically selfish and has no qualms about turning on allies-of-the-moment, and usually makes allies primarily to further their own goals. A neutral evil character has no compunctions about harming others to get what they want, but neither will they go out of their way to cause carnage or mayhem when they see no direct benefit for themselves. Examples of the first type are an assassin who has little regard for formal laws but does not needlessly kill, a henchman who plots behind their superior's back, or a mercenary who readily switches sides if made a better offer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#:~:text=A%20neutral%20evil%20character%20has,no%20direct%20benefit%20for%20themselves.

Joel has no qualms about turning on the Fireflies for his own purposes, has repeatedly shown he's prepared to mercilessly kill (and torture) to get what he wants (but only when there is something in it for him, and he generally doesnt needlessly kill) and is ultimately a selfish person (he rescues Ellie for his own reasons, the cure and the rest of the world be damned).

I have no doubt he loves Ellie, but that's neither here nor there.

He's a pretty good example of a NE protagonist really. Still a team killing jerk (just ask Marlene) but not a moustache twirling NE either.