What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Thourne]

Sorry... I thought rape, sexual harassment, etc. were the icky concepts. I haven't seen anyone espouse playing a mutual sexual attraction in rpg's as icky. Thirsty is slang and just means someone is really attracted to another person, often to the point where they look ridiculous or do ridiculous things to try and be with that person. It's only negative connotation, at least in my community is you often look like a goofball because of the lengths you'll go to get that person's attention.

Unfortunately, over the decades there were people found incompatible for gaming with our group simply because one of our players was bi and that was literally just to much for the prospect to compute/handle/respect.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sorry... I thought rape, sexual harassment, etc. were the icky concepts. I haven't seen anyone espouse playing a mutual sexual attraction in rpg's as icky.

It absolutely is something some people say is "icky", especially younger people. There's a whole section of Twitter and TikTok which is just sort of disgusted by anyone who is in any way horny or thirsty, and I don't think it's an accident that virtually all those people who are disgusted are aged 18-26. But they exist, and they're LOUD. They even have a name for themselves "New adults" or "Majors" (as opposed to minors). An unkind person might suggest that this whole thing was primarily a projection of their own insecurities and youth but...

The also are the primary starters of "age discourse" discussions, and the sort of people who start flipping tables because a 21-y/o is dating a 23-y/o or the like. They recently made a valiant but deeply unsuccessful attempt to cancel a female Twitter user who had the temerity to say that most men weren't obsessed with "virgin brides" and the like.

There's a sizeable crossover with indie RPG twitter and some crossover with D&D twitter.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yeah. When I first encountered that last one I just sort of scratched my head and wondered what possessed whoever it was that came up with that to do it.

Different roots from Latin.

One is inflammare.
One is flammare.

The issue is actually that flammable came later. Inflammable (think "my passions were inflamed!") is the older word.

 

[Bagpuss]

I'm not connecting the dots...How is Thirsty Sword Lesbian controversial content? Are you implying someone's chosen sexual preference is in some way akin to slavery? I'm honestly not getting this one.

It isn't for most people, although saying that there have been plenty of people on this site that have expressed they aren't happy with any displays of sexuality in gaming. Personally I use fade to black on those moments rather than have all characters act like they are asexual.

But have you not seen what's going on in Florida with school libraries? Of course queer content in controversial.

D&D itself has been controversial through much of its life, with BADD trying to get it banned, for witchcraft and being falsely blamed for teen suicides, etc.

Slavery is just one example of controversial content. The depiction of Orcs, graphic gore, animal cruelty and queer content might be others. The point being you should only get to choose what content you yourself consume not what other people get to enjoy.

 

[Bagpuss]

Your own entrenched preferences are far more important than extending a hand to someone who is made uncomfortable by the topics.

Again if X topics make some uncomfortable don't play those topics, and if they made it clear in a session zero then I wouldn't include those topics when playing with them. That is different that saying those topics shouldn't be allowed at all, or that because those topics feature in a tiny portion of the hobby that they aren't welcome.

It's like someone siting down at a CoC game at a convention that has the tags gore, body horror, ritual sacrifice of animals and then complaining that they don't like animal cruelty so the game shouldn't be allowed, and somehow the whole hobby doesn't want them to play RPGs.

 

[Imaro]

It absolutely is something some people say is "icky", especially younger people. There's a whole section of Twitter and TikTok which is just sort of disgusted by anyone who is in any way horny or thirsty, and I don't think it's an accident that virtually all those people who are disgusted are aged 18-26. But they exist, and they're LOUD. They even have a name for themselves "New adults" or "Majors" (as opposed to minors). An unkind person might suggest that this whole thing was primarily a projection of their own insecurities and youth but...

The also are the primary starters of "age discourse" discussions, and the sort of people who start flipping tables because a 21-y/o is dating a 23-y/o or the like. They recently made a valiant but deeply unsuccessful attempt to cancel a female Twitter user who had the temerity to say that most men weren't obsessed with "virgin brides" and the like.

There's a sizeable crossover with indie RPG twitter and some crossover with D&D twitter.

Are gamers calling it "icky"? That's what I'm concerned with and that's what was brought up as a counterpoint to the slavery discussion is it happening in actual games...

It isn't for most people but have you not seen what's going on in Florida with school libraries?

D&D itself has been controversial through much of its life, with BADD trying to get it banned, being falsely blamed for teen suicides, etc.

Again are these concerns that are happening with gamers in games or are we now ok with citing the hypothetical as opposed to calling for real instances?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again, not an option in Adventurers League.

People don’t just game at home with their friends.

Sure, but WotC themselves has said they don't design with AL in mind. Has that changed, or were they being "creative" with that statement?

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is just not true. It's deeply ironic that people trying to "do good" are some of the ones keenest to erase women and minorities from the history of TTRPGs.

EDIT:

I'm reminded of the history of MMORPGs. In the EverQuest/DAoC era, about 30-40% of players were women (and I mean players, not characters, to be clear - that was more like 50%). This was reliably surveyed by Nick Yee and others. In the WoW era, these numbers continued, decreasing slightly as a percentage as a huuuuuge tidal wave of teen to early twenties boys descended on the hobby, but remained above 30% (and started going up again as WoW's appeal broadened out).

But it was notable that some groups of people resolutely refused to believe this, because in their guilds, everyone was male. So clearly the women in other guilds were "lying" about being women, because as the "witty" phrase said back then "there are no women on the internet" (i.e. anyone saying they're female is just a man trying to scam you, a truly incredible misogynist claim).

And they were wrong - we had voice chat and even video back then - and the were even wrong about there being no women in their guilds - there were, but they had to pretend to be male to avoid having misogyny or sexual harassment directed at them - and a lot of those women ended up leaving for less-horrific guilds.

Eventually most of those people grew up, and those denialist attitudes largely faded away apart from in the grimiest corners of the 'net - there's still huge sexism/misogyny in online gaming but it's not the same "women don't exist" kind.

Why am I bringing this up? Because I saw a 20-something (now, so like born in about 2000 god help us all - I was playing EQ before he was born) on reddit claiming that there were no women in MMOs in the early WoW era (he didn't even seem to be aware that there were earlier MMOs, and casually dismissed it as meaningless when it was pointed out), and he knew this, because people had told him so, and he'd read forum posts where people said it. And a bunch of kids who were also not there at the time, were of course agreeing with him. It wasn't until he got yelled at by a lot of MMO-grogs who actually were there and then gradually downvoted into oblivion that it got sorted. And he kept saying he was right all the way down.

I'm not drawing a straight comparison here but it's certainly reminiscent of the attitude to me - "there are no women on the internet".

This is an extremely unhelpful, anti-discussion and self-congratulatory attitude on your part.

The poster wasn't just "technically correct". They were fully correct, and you were attempting to change history - both in terms of what you posted, which was drastically at odds with the reality, and the reality itself.

Quite.

By that logic, minority ethnicities are "virtually non-existent" in Europe, because most European countries are over 80% white - Britain is 87% white, for example. Yet our prime minister, our secretary of state and others are minority ethnicities, and I don't think the 13% of the country who are non-white regard themselves as "virtually non-existent".

Personally, @Hussar, I'd suggest that instead of digging the hole deeper on this comment, you maybe admit you were wrong? Even I am capable of doing this on occasion. And claiming people want to "kick you out of the hobby" because they disagree is a bit dramatic, no? If this level of disagreement what "people want to kick you out of the hobby" looks like, then about 50% of ENworld wants to kick me out of the hobby lol. Which I suspect is untrue.

A lot of people seem to only care about history when it supports  their narrative.

 

[Bagpuss]

I think it has been mentioned several times in this thread that sexual attraction can be a bit of an icky concept to deal with at the gaming table. I would assume the controversy is not the "Lesbian" per se so much as the "Thirsty" . Like, if someone were to put out "Horny Axe Heteros" it would strongly suggest that sexual content was part of the game.

When I mention it, it's both "Yes and no" yes a lot of people inside the hobby find an RP of sexual attraction, queer or hetro a bit embarrassing and would rather not have it as part of their games. And No I do mean the "Lesbian" part of it as well.

Any queer content itself is clearly controversial in the wider sense if you look at the problems going on with school libraries in parts of the US at the moment. Thankfully within the hobby it is generally accept, which again puts into question the whole how the hobby is "unwelcoming".

 

[Micah Sweet]

In a lot of ways it comes down to lack of respect for differing viewpoints. You know how all those gaming tables and conventions were "so welcoming" to people when the hobby had a lot fewer women involved and a lot fewer people of color? You ever think that assessment was your point of view and not shared by a significant proportion of the types of people who weren't already at it?

This thread has so many posts from people complaining about publishers potentially avoiding controversial topics but how many of you are really thinking about the impression you're giving to people and how welcoming you are to them? Here you are, entrenched in privileged positions in the hobby, you think you look particularly welcoming to someone who isn't? Because it's pretty clear. Your own entrenched preferences are far more important than extending a hand to someone who is made uncomfortable by the topics.

I don't think anyone here has said that their own preferences were more important than making your fellow players at your table comfortable in the actual game you're all playing together. What is actually available for sale is to my mind not the same issue.