What We Lose When We Eliminate Controversial Content

[Umbran]

Could someone clearly and succinctly present an argument against having slavery in a setting in such a way that their argument isn't an appeal to emotion?

Problem - the issue is, at its core, about human emotions. If you want to live in a society of hundreds of millions (on a planet with billions) of people, the emotions of other people matter. This is why empathy is useful to us.

 

[Faolyn]

See I think this is the big difference in perspective here.

Personally I think those people have fallen to the wayside of RPGs over the last 30+ years. Like, 25 years ago, were they around? Absolutely. To the point where eternal vigilance around new players to groups was required to ensure they weren't one.

But when was the last time you saw one in the flesh (including in VTT games and the like as "flesh" ofc)?

Me personally? Not in a while. Some of the people at my table have other tables they've played at and have had to deal with (and kick out) people like this within the last 5 years. (Including someone, apparently, whose preference for always evil orcs was just the cover for some particularly nasty IRL racism.)

But it also doesn't matter if I personally have witnessed it--I am a reclusive introvert with massive social anxiety who only plays with the same five people and have been for years. I've been playing with one of them since the 90s, even. I don't seek out new groups (if I lost my current group, I'd really have no comfortable way of getting a new one). Because I don't have a ton of personal reference, I have to listen and read what stories from other people, some of whom I know in real life, some of whom I know only from forums like this one.

And from that listening and reading to what other people say, I can say that there are a disturbing number of expletive-deleteds out there. Even if they're an extreme minority, well.. the entire phrase is one bad apple spoils the bunch, not that one bad apple just makes for a bad game.

Because for me it's over 20 years. People like that are so much easier to detect now, because they almost always out themselves in their social media. And I'm not saying "Oh you must check their social media", because it doesn't get to that point, rather someone will know them, and they'll have seen their social media, and freaks like that love to signal that they're freaks. The last time we acquired a new player, it was easy to see he wasn't going to be a problem from his socials - and we met him beforehand, and he was a cool guy. The sort of crank who thinks it's cool to murder and eat an NPC (as per your example) is absolutely going to be signalling the heck out of that via social media in a variety of ways.

Well, that also assumes that people have social media (I don't, except for forums like this which are basically anonymous) and pays attention to everyone else's social media. It also assumes that you actually know the person. @Hussar apparently does lots of Adventure League. I've never played AL games, but I imagine that you don't get to know all that much about your players in advance of one of those sessions.

This also assumes that people are always roleplaying themselves. I have no problems making a combat character while being mostly a pacifist in real life. Murder and cannibalism are terrible in real life, but as a GM, my favorite genre is horror and I would gladly use both as the actions of the bad guy (and I have). Lots of people play evil characters in RPGs as a way to let loose without worrying about the consequences, and I'm sure you wouldn't say that they're signalling that in social media.

This is why X-cards or a similar mechanism are so important, and it's often a good idea as the DM/GM/Storyteller to invoke one yourself if you see something you don't like, esp. as it can break the ice on using them. Once there's a formalized mechanism, that really helps.

Safety tools are beyond useful and should be a necessity, or at least something that gets a paragraph or two in the core books for every system. Even in my close-knit group, we still stumble upon things that we didn't know would upset people.

But there are people who, as you say, are going to be hostile to X-cards for reasons that range from "my group doesn't need it" to "that's woke crap" to "they just need to get over themselves and face their problems" to "why should I have to change my game for them."

 

[Faolyn]

People also use 'dilapidated' when referring to buildings that aren't made of stone. That is how language works.

Ackchually, "dilapidated" means to "fallen into ruin" or "destroyed" and is related to words meaning "pelt with stones." But it doesn't mean the building itself has to be made of stone.

</pedant>

 

[Faolyn]

Someone earlier in this thread said you could remove slavery from your Fantasy Rome and it would be the same. No. It wouldn't. It completely changes things.

That may have been me, and no, I didn't say that exactly. I said you could have a game set in Fantasy Rome and never have to touch on slavery while still having an interesting and fulfilling game.

Although I would also point out that if this were Fantasy Rome, you could do whatever you wanted, including getting rid of slavery, because that fantasy part could be used to make up for the lack of slaves.

 

[Thourne]

Problem - the issue is, at its core, about human emotions. If you want to live in a society of hundreds of millions (on a planet with billions) of people, the emotions of other people matter. This is why empathy is useful to us.

Wouldn't that be a logical and thought out argument about the emotional impact it has on some people.
Therefore, not an appeal to emotion?

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

If you mean, "language becomes less useful over time, because people misuse it, and you should shut up about it..." I'm not sure I'm on board with that.

"Wend" does not mean "go", but we use its past tense as if it did - and, in fact, we are forced to.

Umbrellas are usually used for some purpose other than to provide shade.

"Black" derives from a word that meant "to shine".

None of this is language becoming less useful. None of this is people misusing language.

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

Ackchually, "dilapidated" means to "fallen into ruin" or "destroyed" and is related to words meaning "pelt with stones." But it doesn't mean the building itself has to be made of stone.

</pedant>

Ambrose Bierce said it did.

"Television" is formed from one Greek stem and one Latin stem. There are people who do not like that. Those people are silly and should be ignored.

 

[Maxperson]

So, right there, the issue is becoming confused. Properly, phobia is fear, anxiety, or aversion.

Folks have attached hatred to phobia because they assume the hatred comes from fear. That assumption is sometiems accurate, sometimes not.

I blame Star Wars.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But it also doesn't matter if I personally have witnessed it

It really does matter when you're asserting something is common. There's a huge difference between lived experience and "SOME GUY ON A WEBSITE SAID!" and you are going with the latter.

Even if they're an extreme minority, well.. the entire phrase is one bad apple spoils the bunch, not that one bad apple just makes for a bad game.

Yeah and that's a ridiculous phrase in a situation where you can just kick bad players out of a group. It doesn't make any sense.

That phrase is applicable to organisations, for example, where bad people can't be kicked out - we all know the major one. It certainly isn't applicable to groups - if it was, Faolyn, it would apply to YOU, just said you had to kick out a guy who was covering weird racism, with evil Orcs stuff. Are you saying you're a bad apple? I presume not.

Well, that also assumes that people have social media (I don't, except for forums like this which are basically anonymous) and pays attention to everyone else's social media.

As I was saying, you don't have to pay much attention - these people signal - and it's not just conventional social media - it's stuff like Steam and things. Yeah if you invite a total stranger into your group and do zero research into them and don't hang out with them first they might cause a problem for what, one session before you kick them out? I think you can probably handle that.

Lots of people play evil characters in RPGs as a way to let loose without worrying about the consequences, and I'm sure you wouldn't say that they're signalling that in social media.

I would say that anyone who is playing an evil character who is genuinely upsetting the other players, yeah probably is de facto signalling that on socials. Someone who is playing more "Alan Rickman Evil", sure, no but that guy is probably not causing a problem, is he? I've not suggested evil characters are the problem, and they're not - there are people who play "Good" characters who are also monsters - but monsters are detectable.

A combination of knowing who they are, and having some kind of social meeting with them beforehand, even if it's just a meal or w/e, is going to eliminate virtually every creep. I know you have social anxiety, and I know what that does to people, so to be clear I'm not suggesting you should be the one to do this. But there are presumably people in your group who would. Also as was pointed out, just letting people talk about their previous games is amazing for getting a read on them - if they're kind of person playing to be a creep, they're going to let you know, whether they mean to or not.

But there are people who, as you say, are going to be hostile to X-cards for reasons that range from "my group doesn't need it" to "that's woke crap" to "they just need to get over themselves and face their problems" to "why should I have to change my game for them."

Sure, so you don't play with those people. Someone with an attitude like that isn't going to be discouraged from it by, say, WotC changing what is in D&D settings - nor are they going to run a game that's more friendly or inclusive because WotC did.

 

[Thourne]

I blame Star Wars.

Don't blame little Star Wars.
He is a good kid.
He just started watching them Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers, and well then the immulation and hero worship kicked in.
Give'um another chance your honor.
I am sure he will grow out of it.