D&D General What *is* D&D? (mild movie spoilers)

[Remathilis]

That to me reads as a 2e party very heavily engaged in squeezing every ounce of power out of the mechanical side of the game. Not every party is like that.

Nah. That is barely a blip on 2e power gaming shenanigans. That's "I've played the game to 10+ level a few times". All it shows is some basic understanding of the rules: paladin and ranger were superior to fighter, adding/mage to your character helps stop obsolescence as you reach high level, and specialty priests were better than clerics, depending on the setting and deity. That ain't even touching the abuse you could do with dual-classing or kits.

I'm not saying it was healthy or good, but the worst possible combo of adventurers you could have was a single classed fighter, mage, cleric and thief.

 

[SteveC]

I mean, if you keep your game too one tiny corner of the setting and don't engage with anything above 4th level, ANY setting can be low magic...

If you play through the B and X series of adventures, they are quite low magic. Yep, there may be a huge group of 36th level wizards but you're running against lower powered threats. That doesn't mean you won't eventually do so, but for a long time, those levels didn't even get support in the game.

 

[Remathilis]

If you play through the B and X series of adventures, they are quite low magic. Yep, there may be a huge group of 36th level wizards but you're running against lower powered threats. That doesn't mean you won't eventually do so, but for a long time, those levels didn't even get support in the game.

B/X is one sliver of Mystara. Once you move onto the Gazetteers, the world's magic becomes painfully obvious. Alphatia, Glantri and Irendi are built on magically augmented societies. Blackmoor is a canonical location. If you move onto the Bruce Heard's Princess Ark articles (you know, the ones about an airship?) you are hip deep in gonzo. By the time you're at the Savage Coast, you can't throw a stone without hitting something magical.

To say otherwise is to travel to Wyoming and then comment how based on all you see, you can't believe America has a problem with overpopulation or pollution...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

If you play through the B and X series of adventures, they are quite low magic. Yep, there may be a huge group of 36th level wizards but you're running against lower powered threats. That doesn't mean you won't eventually do so, but for a long time, those levels didn't even get support in the game.

I guess the problem is, different people mean different things by these terms.

"Old school" low magic: Average peasants might doubt magic exists. Even if you know it does, you probably don't know any magic-users, except (maybe) a local priest with weak healing magic. If archmages exist, they start out far away and rarely matter to most people.
"Old school" high magic: Most people have observed magic practiced, and usually know someone who can use magic. When feasible, magic is used to enhance daily life and economic productivity. Most major cities will have at least one practicing archmage, possibly several.

"Modern" low magic: There literally isn't much magic at all in this world. What magic exists is generally feeble, or only capable of significant effect with a lot of preparation time. Few if any archmages have ever existed, and it's unlikely that any exist currently.
"Modern" high magic: Extremely powerful mages exist and may even rule entire countries. Magic can do incredible feats, and even if it isn't the most accessible thing, most folks know that magic exists and have a rough idea of what it can do.

That is, the "modern D&D" idea of "low magic" has been pushed down to near-zero, something more like Conan and Cimmeria, while that of "high magic" is more about cultures and potential than about actual daily practice per se.

...actually, maybe that's a better way to phrase it. One is social-status-focused (old school, asking "what do average folks see?") The other is cosmology focused (modern, asking "how powerful is magic?") By the cosmological standard, almost all old-school settings are high magic, because archmages are real and in many cases rule entire countries and do massive stuff with magic: it doesn't matter that few do go into the study, those who do gain great power. By the social status standard, almost all modern settings are high magic, because magic is a well-known aspect of life for everyday folk: it doesn't matter that most magic-users might be only hedge witches, if everyone knows a hedge witch.

Ironically, even though the social status standard is the old school one for D&D, it's actually the one much closer to modernity, a product of the Enlightenment's empirical project. The cosmological standard is much closer to Antiquity and the pagan aspects of the Medieval Period, because the average Roman or English peasant knew magic existed and, at least for the former, we have conclusive proof that they practiced this magic on the regular (curse tablets, engraved gems, mystery cults, etc., etc.)

 

[Azzy]

I and others have made this point already. You are looking at this from the wrong perspective if your goal is to understand my argument, rather than merely argue against it. There is a difference between a world where highly magical things exist and can be encountered (like just about every setting) and a world in which the magical suffuses everything, such that it's all around you all the time, like the FR as depicted in the film. Both are D&D, the second one is just a lot more common nowadays. And that's fine. But to say things have always been this way is rewriting history.

Dude, Mystara is "a world in which the magical suffuses everything"—read the Gazetteers and the various supplements. That setting is gonzo!

 

[Tonguez]

I guess the problem is, different people mean different things by these terms.

"Old school" low magic: Average peasants might doubt magic exists. Even if you know it does, you probably don't know any magic-users, except (maybe) a local priest with weak healing magic. If archmages exist, they start out far away and rarely matter to most people.
"Old school" high magic: Most people have observed magic practiced, and usually know someone who can use magic. When feasible, magic is used to enhance daily life and economic productivity. Most major cities will have at least one practicing archmage, possibly several.

"Modern" low magic: There literally isn't much magic at all in this world. What magic exists is generally feeble, or only capable of significant effect with a lot of preparation time. Few if any archmages have ever existed, and it's unlikely that any exist currently.
"Modern" high magic: Extremely powerful mages exist and may even rule entire countries. Magic can do incredible feats, and even if it isn't the most accessible thing, most folks know that magic exists and have a rough idea of what it can do.

That is, the "modern D&D" idea of "low magic" has been pushed down to near-zero, something more like Conan and Cimmeria, while that of "high magic" is more about cultures and potential than about actual daily practice per se.

...actually, maybe that's a better way to phrase it. One is social-status-focused (old school, asking "what do average folks see?") The other is cosmology focused (modern, asking "how powerful is magic?") By the cosmological standard, almost all old-school settings are high magic, because archmages are real and in many cases rule entire countries and do massive stuff with magic: it doesn't matter that few do go into the study, those who do gain great power. By the social status standard, almost all modern settings are high magic, because magic is a well-known aspect of life for everyday folk: it doesn't matter that most magic-users might be only hedge witches, if everyone knows a hedge witch.

Ironically, even though the social status standard is the old school one for D&D, it's actually the one much closer to modernity, a product of the Enlightenment's empirical project. The cosmological standard is much closer to Antiquity and the pagan aspects of the Medieval Period, because the average Roman or English peasant knew magic existed and, at least for the former, we have conclusive proof that they practiced this magic on the regular (curse tablets, engraved gems, mystery cults, etc., etc.)

It would seem that what people are wanting isnt so much low magic but subtle magic, the magic of hexes and curses, ancient lost artifacts, alcgemist elixirs, subtle charms and complex rituals is fine, not so much wizards throwing fireballs, Barbarians cracklinng with lightning and ubiquitous Knock spells instead of picking locks

 

[Micah Sweet]

Dude, Mystara is "a world in which the magical suffuses everything"—read the Gazetteers and the various supplements. That setting is gonzo!

That argument has already been covered.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It would seem that what people are wanting isnt so much low mahic but subtle magic, the magic of hexes and curses, ancient lost artifacts, alcgemist elixirs, subtle charms and complex rituals is fine, not so much wizards throwing fireballs, Barbarians cracklinng with lightning and ubiquitous Knock spells instead of picking locks

Yeah, basically. Combat cantrips in particular really screw with that feel.

 

[Minigiant]

It would seem that what people are wanting isnt so much low mahic but subtle magic, the magic of hexes and curses, ancient lost artifacts, alcgemist elixirs, subtle charms and complex rituals is fine, not so much wizards throwing fireballs, Barbarians cracklinng with lightning and ubiquitous Knock spells instead of picking locks

I don't think D&D was ever that either.

I think the part fans of this type of fantasy is a wanting of "low level" D&D. If you stay at low levels, you can't go deeep enough to collect many magic items and don't have the resources within your spellcaster to use them often. And if you stay low level, you don't see most of the magic monster and in base book stuck with humaniods and animals as foes. IT's only subtle because no one is strong enough to be obvious,

But when you get to level 13, what does barbarian weiding and what is your sorcerer doing with their 1st level slots? The rules where there even in the old days.

Even the movie feels like low level play with high level PCs.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It would seem that what people are wanting isnt so much low mahic but subtle magic, the magic of hexes and curses, ancient lost artifacts, alcgemist elixirs, subtle charms and complex rituals is fine, not so much wizards throwing fireballs, Barbarians cracklinng with lightning and ubiquitous Knock spells instead of picking locks

That certainly could be another angle, and it sounds like at least a few in the thread agree.

For the "old school," to be "low" magic it must be either seen at a distance, rather than up close; or subtle, so even if it is powerful, it is only useful in narrow circumstances or unorthodox ploys; or sharply limited (whether by resources like slots, by slow casting/creation time, or dangerous risks/side effects, or times/locations/effects that cannot be relied upon, etc.) For the "contemporary," "low" magic must be truly rare and either outright not very powerful (blurring the line between "wizardry" and "legerdemain"), or really focused on doing one specific thing and not really usable outside that context. By the "old school" standard, Avatar: the Last Airbender (just the original, not Korra) is if anything high magic, because benders are commonplace and most bending is pretty straightforward, powered only by the endurance of the user (and available material/energy.) But by the "contemporary" standard, AtLA (again, not Korra) is if anything low magic. The most powerful non-Avatar benders in the world can...lift really big rocks, or shoot a gout of flame comparable to a vehicle flamethrower. The Avatar alone can achieve fantastical feats of reshaping the world around them, and even then it requires the full might of the Avatar Spirit to do anything remotely that powerful.