WotC may have sent the Pinkertons to a magic leakers home. Update: WotC confirms it and has a response.

[Bedrockgames]

Would you have been less bothered if WoTC had the police show up to this guy's house to get the cards?

I think most people are uncomfortable with both scenarios based on what we know about what happened. When people have said 'if something illegal happened they could have called the police' part of the reason that is being said is because we think they sent pinkerton in because no laws were broken (or nothing that rose beyond something that couldn't be mediated if it were) and maybe even did so because they were using a gray area to intimidate him. I think police showing up at the guy's house for a pack of cards would also be a very bad thing to do (and I imagine most police departments aren't going to show up at a guy's house over a deck of cards).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Anyone in a position to hire a private detective agency knows all of that. That's the service that they're paying for. The Pinkerton brand name might make the optics especially poor, but any private detective agency that WotC hired would have approached things the same way.

I liked this, because I mostly agree. But .... as I have stated before, there are firms (like Pinkerton) that color within the lines ... even if those lines are "shady," and there are firms that certain corporations (and law firms) hire because they are interested in results, and less in the process of obtaining them. I've already mentioned them, but given that they aren't in Red Dead Redemption 2, I assume people are less familiar with these types of firms and their activities, as opposed to things that happened a century ago.

Read Israeli spy firm Black Cube’s secret pitch to clients

Black Cube, notorious for allegedly targeting women who accuse Harvey Weinstein of sexual misconduct, doesn't mention that in documents obtained by Quartz.

qz.com

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
Folks, I see some discussion of events not related to gaming creeping into this thread. Please keep on topic. Thanks.

 

[payn]

I think most people are uncomfortable with both scenarios based on what we know about what happened. When people have said 'if something illegal happened they could have called the police' part of the reason that is being said is because we think they sent pinkerton in because no laws were broken (or nothing that rose beyond something that couldn't be mediated if it were) and maybe even did so because they were using a gray area to intimidate him. I think police showing up at the guy's house for a pack of cards would also be a very bad thing to do (and I imagine most police departments aren't going to show up at a guy's house over a deck of cards).

I think most folks are under the impression that police will "get right on this card business". They will, of course, at a quarter before never. Which is why folks who can afford it use PIs.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think most folks are under the impression that police will "get right on this card business". They will, of course, at a quarter before never. Which is why folks who can afford it use PIs.

Importantly, this was also part of an investigation. At a minimum, it is my understanding that the needed to recover the boxes/foil in order to track where the product originally came from.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think most folks are under the impression that police will "get right on this card business". They will, of course, at a quarter before never. Which is why folks who can afford it use PIs.

It depends on the department. I lived in a high crime area until very recently and the police were responsive when something happened (I would say a very fast response time). However if people called over a deck of cards, they were probably roll their eyes and maybe take down the information, but never do anything. Also I don't think i want a deck of cards released early to really rise to the level of needing police but at the same time, I don't think this is a good use of cooperate power (and it is a use of corporate power: it is the kind of resource that regular people don't have access to (particularly over something as frivolous as a deck of cards)

 

[Maxperson]

Would you have been less bothered if WoTC had the police show up to this guy's house to get the cards?

It didn't have to be either a major armed guard/investigator service(especially Pinkerton) OR law enforcement. There were better, non-threatening alternatives.

 

[Mannahnin]

I think most people are uncomfortable with both scenarios based on what we know about what happened. When people have said 'if something illegal happened they could have called the police' part of the reason that is being said is because we think they sent pinkerton in because no laws were broken (or nothing that rose beyond something that couldn't be mediated if it were) and maybe even did so because they were using a gray area to intimidate him. I think police showing up at the guy's house for a pack of cards would also be a very bad thing to do (and I imagine most police departments aren't going to show up at a guy's house over a deck of cards).

I think most folks are under the impression that police will "get right on this card business". They will, of course, at a quarter before never. Which is why folks who can afford it use PIs.

Importantly, this was also part of an investigation. At a minimum, it is my understanding that the needed to recover the boxes/foil in order to track where the product originally came from.

Exactly. WotC wanted the packaging, which is important for trying to track the leak.

The local PD might be responsive to investigate potential stolen goods, but it's low priority for them, and their actions are constrained to at least some extent by Constitutional (4th amendment) protections against unreasonable search and seizure, and requirements for due process protections (5th and 14th amendments). Which is proper and good, because government agents with the power to arrest and imprison people most certainly should be constrained.

Reaching out to the Youtuber (Dan Cannon) to get the stuff before getting police involved is most likely better for everyone concerned. It reduces the risk of violence, it speeds the process, it minimizes the chances of Cannon getting a criminal record or having to spend time and money going to court because the an officer recommends and prosecutor decides to press criminal charges (which is in their hands once you go them with a report of possible criminal activity, which is all they'd be interested in)...

Now, of course, if the Pinkertons were threatening or abusive that's not cool, and WotC bears responsibility for hiring them. But while having a conversation with a PI along the lines of "Hey, I need you to talk to my client on the phone about giving the stuff back; if we have to get the police involved you could be criminally liable" may be unpleasant and come across as threatening, it's not exactly the Stasi.

 

[The Scythian]

Legal and ethical are also not always the same thing. There are ethical bounds journalists are supposed to follow for example, but plenty violate those ethics because they are still within the bounds of the law. And a lot of this gets very shady like you point out. The intimidating effect of having pinkerton agents show up at your house and talk about legal consequences while asking you to erase files and/or return products is going to cause a person to act differently than if it were a simple phone call from a representative at the company

I agree with you completely. Based on what I've read about this situation, I am not on the side of WotC.

In this thread and elsewhere, I've seen people say things that suggest that the problem was that WotC hired Pinkerton specifically, which suggests that if they'd hired some other firm that didn't bust unions, those people wouldn't have had an issue with it. That's more along the lines of what I was responding to, in a general sense.

 

[Mannahnin]

It didn't have to be either a major armed guard/investigator service(especially Pinkerton) OR law enforcement. There were better, non-threatening alternatives.

We know WotC tried to call him. They could have tried dispatching one of their own employees to his home, but that's outside their job description and training, and potentially risky. They clearly wanted to act quickly and minimize the chance that he'd toss the packaging and ignore them, which I would assume would be a strong possibility if they only reached out remotely.