WotC may have sent the Pinkertons to a magic leakers home. Update: WotC confirms it and has a response.

[Bedrockgames]

Again, there were no threats of violence. There were, in the light most favorable to Mr. Cannon, threats of legal repercussions.

This is what is making the discussion difficult- yes, someone can be intimidated by people showing up and letting you know that there is a possibility that you might be liable (civilly and/or criminally). But as unpleasant as that can be, there's a big difference between that and having someone physically threaten you.

I think anytime a company threatens customers with legal action, though lawyers if through security agencies, it is going to be read as intimidating, because the company has resources you don’t and litigation isn’t something most people can afford, and prison time isn’t something most people want to risk. Now there is a sliding scale here of appropriateness. If someone is harassing WOTC employees, breaking into their warehouse, stealing (and not like a pack of early release cards but something more serious), etc then I get sending a letter from a lawyer or something. But just based on what we’ve seen here this seems like a big overreaction. It also seems like something where WOTC should understand how badly it can play out (they are going after a guy who talks about their products online, there are just better ways to handle that scenario purely from a business and PR perspective)

I haven’t had anything like this happen. But I received a letter from a company lawyer once (not gaming related) and it was extremely intimidating. I would have capitulated if I hadn’t consulted with a lawyer who basically said was bluster and nothing to worry about. I think anytime a person a with expertise explicitly or tacitly threatens legal action people feel incredibly intimidated. I also once had to appear in court for a driving without a license charge that was the product of a mistake made by my insurance company (which caused me to lose my license without knowing about it). It has been ages so my details might be off. I was arrested and had to appear before a judge after spending the night in our city jail. When I was brought out even though I knew this was the product of a paperwork error I was told by the judge I could pay a small fine or have a jury trial with a possibility if a larger find and something like up to a year in prison. As certain as I was (and later when I contacted the RMV and insurance company the certainty was confirmed), I just plead guilty and paid the find because the cost benefit in my head was, if this jury trial goes south for any reason, or I am wrong about the paperwork, I could spend a year in prison (and a night in jail was enough for me to formulate my opinion on that prospect). The judge wasn’t doing anything wrong. He was very reasonable but my point is just how intimidated people do feel when a person who seems to have any authority, even a Pinkerton agent, starts talking legal consequences. Especially with the prison system being the way it is here. And do you often do what you are asked to avoid catastrophic consequences even if you know or feel you are in the right

 

[darjr]

How do you know it wasn’t?

It’s in at least one of the articles and videos.

 

[Guest 7031328]

Would you have been less bothered if WoTC had the police show up to this guy's house to get the cards?

This was already asked a page or two ahead of where you asked and answered.

As well as the insinuation elsewhere that the only issue people have with the Pinkertons is what they did a long time ago, even though it's been repeatedly mentioned that's not the case. That same question has been asked/insinuated 3 or 4 times and answered. This thread may be headed the way of other hot topics, of the same things being said all around for 20+ more pages until slowly sputtering off.

In any case, I'm under no illusion any of this will have any kind of severe effect on a major business and leader in the TTRPG space, but I can't in good conscience support that company if they feel this was an appropriate action and have no need to apologize for that action. I was hoping to give them the benefit of the doubt with maybe not understanding what the Pinkertons have been involved in, but with the people making the call actually being prior Pinkertons and no leadership stepping in after the fact, that ship has likely sailed.

 

[ReshiIRE]

I really feel with a lot of this, if you Mad Libs this, and change out names, the response is different. If, instead of what's going on, Paizo accidentally Fedex's playtest documents for their complete but unreleased adventure path to a Youtuber who likes to break TTRPG news, and Paizo hires the Pinkertons as legal, bonded third-party contractors -- no one bats an eye.

Are you seriously saying this when the Agents of Edgewatch Adventure Path was controversal in the community for not initially including rules on non-lethal damage, the fact it has police members taking objects from suspects - and it's very premise of being a police focused Adventure Path? (especially since it coincidentally began to release after the awful murder, by police, of George Floyd)

No, Paizo would be absolutely slaughtered by their closest and biggest fans and the damn company would be in anarchy because of it - especially considering it is unionised, and it appears private investigator companies are often involved in union busting or spying on employees.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

It’s in at least one of the articles and videos.

Link?
I apologize for the inconvenience, but there are 28 pages of posts, and I assume you might be more familiar with which posts would have the linked information.

 

[Zardnaar]

1. The product isn't WotC once it's been sold to a distributor. Even assuming it was stolen from a warehouse (unless ots a wotc warehouse and they actually wn it).

2. The youtuber could have told the Pinkertons to get bent and get off my property.

3. If the property was actually sold they can ask to have it returned not compel.

4. It's a civil matter unless they can prove its stolen. Then they can go to the police.

 

[darjr]

Link?
I apologize for the inconvenience, but there are 28 pages of posts, and I assume you might be more familiar with which posts would have the linked information.

Ope. I think the latest article is in the OP and the video is there. I’ll fix it if not when I get a chance.

No worries.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

This was already asked a page or two ahead of where you asked and answered.

Objection!

As well as the insinuation elsewhere that the only issue people have with the Pinkertons is what they did a long time ago, even though it's been repeatedly mentioned that's not the case. That same question has been asked/insinuated 3 or 4 times and answered.

Do you not find it problematic that everything everyone at Pinkerton does seems to be viewed as bad/evil/wrong/abuse/etc? Is it not possible that at least one employee isn't breaking the legs of union workers and making YouTuber wives cry? Or should we be looking at any Pinkerton involvement as grossly violent?

This thread may be headed the way of other hot topics, of the same things being said all around for 20+ more pages until slowly sputtering off.

Pffftt... I thought that was going to happen around page seven. I was proven thoroughly wrong. This thread will go on and become as horrific as pineapple pizza, and you should all be ashamed... of eating pineapple pizza.

In any case, I'm under no illusion any of this will have any kind of severe effect on a major business and leader in the TTRPG space, but I can't in good conscience support that company if they feel this was an appropriate action and have no need to apologize for that action. I was hoping to give them the benefit of the doubt with maybe not understanding what the Pinkertons have been involved in, but with the people making the call actually being prior Pinkertons and no leadership stepping in after the fact, that ship has likely sailed.

I'm curious as to how many active gamers will actually follow through on something like this. I haven't bought a WoTC product since D&D 3E. Not because I didn't like 4E or what came after (I didn't like 4E), but because my gaming group sucks. Bunch of losers with boring daily lives, wives, and kids. They can't seem to get together more than once to play a game. The DM, my amazingly ignorant cousin, likes to start new campaigns all the time. Probably because he never plays any of the ones he starts, and never actually finishes developing the ones he has us play. We create new characters every 3 years. We meet to play one game, which is really character creation because all the characters have been lost, every 3 years. There's also no gaming stores near enough for me to drive out and join someone else's group. So I at least have a depressing reason to not buy games and WoTC material. Now I just spend money on way too expensive camera gear.

But, what are people that are actively playing going to do? WoTC sometimes releasing pretty cool material. That may be easier for some than others.

 

[CleverNickName]

Well, yeah. I do. I already discussed this in detail. But if you're actually familiar with Pinkerton, you're familiar with them now, not only with what they were over a century ago!

See, when I wrote this:

They called in the Pinkertons? Like, the Pinkertons?

it was because I wasn't aware that The Pinkertons were still around, still doing business. Everything I know about them has come from the history classes in college...so I just assumed that they were, ya know, history. I didn't mean to sound judgy; I was genuinely surprised to learn that the Pinkertons are still around.

 

[Mannahnin]

Not just anyone showing up. Someone from Pinkerton showing up. A company infamous enough to be the villain in media representations, with a history of actions that we'd probably expect from a private military contractor today. "Oh, they were not de jure threats of violence," doesn't really improve my perception of events all that much. "Let's maybe toe the line for assault," does not improve my perception of Hasbro or WotC. If we have to even talk about the legal definitions of assault, threat, or harassment, WotC has really already lost.

This may be a case of our media preferences and social media info siloing on display.

I understand that they're a villain in RDR2. And that they were the heroes in a Western police procedural TV show a few years back.

Funner fact that I happen to remember too well (sigh, age). The best Weezer album (FIGHT ME!) was named Pinkerton. And they were sued by .... the Pinkertons ... over it. But the problem was the Rivers actually named the album not after the detectives, but Lt. B. F. Pinkerton from Madama Butterfly!

*Second best album.