D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[Horwath]

I just don't know how you mix those casters then when multiclassing...

1. You dont'
2. Go with 3.5e multiclassing and track separate spell slots for separate class.
3. I'll try to think something later for MC rules in 5E style

 

[mellored]

Going from a full caster progression to a 2/3rd caster progression is still a nerf.

It's more like going from 2/3 caster down to 1/2 caster

Which is still a nerf, and medium armor doesn't make up for it.

So, IMO.
They should get the level 9 Pact Boon upgrade invocations for free.
Hex shouldn't take concentration and be at-will (match hunters mark).
Patron Spell should be per short rest.

Also, Dark ones blessings should trigger when the hexed target dies.

 

[Horwath]

Going from a full caster progression to a 2/3rd caster progression is still a nerf.

true.

If an invocation is added at 1st level, extra invocation at 3rd and 19th level it could make up for it.

1st level invocation could be used for Arcanum so warlock could start with more spells than full caster,

and extra at 3rd level invocation opens up 2nd level spell at the rate of full caster.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

This. It's not a "key identity" it's a metagame mechanic. I can't really imagine a warlock sitting around having a beer with other casters and they'll all, "No $#%&? You get all your spells back after only resting for an hour?"
"Yeah, but bear in mind I only get a couple of them."
"What level?"
"That's the crazy thing: all my spells are cast at the same level."
"Get outta town!"

that is a weird order of the stick way to say it it thought...

a wizard and a warlock sit with a beer...

wizard "i prepare arcane formula and have power levels of spells I can use to power them"
warlock "My spell daddy gave me some cool tricks but if I do them more then twice I need to take a break grab a drink maybe a snack and then I can do them again"

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I have some fond memories of 4e, but it's gone. Encounter powers are not coming back. They didn't make sense and were an artificial game balance rule.

I know tricks that wont work over and over again but I can pull out often didn't make sense to you?

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

So many adventures have time pressures built in that I just don't understand how others don't understand time pressure in an adventure.

I asked in the other thread but is my group the only one that averaged 1-2 short rests per adventureing day with 3 being way more common then 0?

three weeks ago we had an adventure that was more or less 3 adventuring days with 1 down day between the 1st and 2nd and 4 between the 2nd and 3rd... we got 3 short rests on 1st and 3rd and had 5 on the 2nd

 

[Aldarc]

I have some fond memories of 4e, but it's gone. Encounter powers are not coming back. They didn't make sense and were an artificial game balance rule. The character doesn't know what an encounter is, only the player and DM knows. Everything in life including you reading this message is an "encounter" and it just doesn't make sense, even in a fantasy world, for quantity of powers to be based on encounters.

Now if you want to say a spell slot recharges every minute, or after you spend a minute doing nothing, that we could work with.

Encounter powers re-charged after a 5 minute rest, which is something that characters in the fiction could understand. That's all Encounters meant: i.e., 1-2x per Short Rest.

 

[tglassy]

The old Warlock is only a Full Caster if the party and DM agree to a short rest. The entire premise that they stand with other Full Casters is dependent on other people.

And the new warlock still has access to the higher level spells. It is a little off giving them only one more invocation but turning Mystic Arcanum into an invocation, but you can still get ahold of any Arcane Spell in the game.

As for people liking the Warlock because it has a reliable cantrip, utility Invocations and backup grenade spell slots, yes, I enjoyed that, too. You’re basically a cowboy. It’s one reason why I like the class. My Fire Genasi was basically a Cowboy Ghost Rider. The mechanics fit him pretty well.

But the Warlock is billed as this highly flexible class. You have all these invocation options, all these different directions you could go. But in the end, if you didn’t just create the Cowboy, your character is subpar and would have been better spent as a different class. Saying “THATS HOW WARLOCKS PLAY” doesn’t account for the fact that they give you all these options and make you think they can play these other ways when they can’t.

They needed more spell slots. But if you keep the short rest mechanic you can’t give them more spell slots cause then they have the potential to outplay other casters. So you gotta figure out a way to give them more spell slots without giving them too many spell slots. Half caster works, particularly since many Invocations and every Boon got an upgrade. I understand going from Pact Magic to Half Caster is a slight nerf because pact magic reached 5th lvl at lvl 9 and half casters don’t get there till lvl 17, but every Boon got an upgrade. With the Tome and one hour of casting time, you can cherry pick any two Cantrips and Rituals in the game. That’s insane. Talk about utility. “Give me a sec, I can find the right spell in my book.”

 

[mellored]

Oh.

At some point, you should get a Pact Spell at-will.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So Fly is a waste unless you aren't using Hex. If you spend spell slot one to cast Hex, and then come to a large chasm, casting fly costs you both spell slots due to concentration. On a normal caster, that cost is smaller since you have first level slots to recast hex with. But if you precast hex and in the second room in the dungeon you need to fly, you're asking for a short rest one room into the dungeon.

There are reasons I, in practice, don't take Hex although your average warlock player does. But fly is very situational; when Fly is what you need it's what you need and when it's not it can stay on the bench.

Second, upcasting blindness is a waste if there is only one target. Ditto with Invisibility. A regular caster can control the number of targets and only expend a slot needed, therefore not upcasting for no benefit.

So what? What I asked was which of these spells was "the best". This doesn't answer the question. And the simple response to your critique is that if it's the party vs one foe that foe had better be legendary or it loses to the action economy, If it's legendary you probably shouldn't be trying to save or suck it anyway. And if it's not there will be a second target.

And to repeat myself what I asked is which spell was "the best". You haven't been able to say that "in an appropriate situation one of the other spells does that spell's job better".

Third, your spell choice is requires constant retraining. While spell swapping is a part of all spells known classes, most players use it to correct bad choices.

Again so what?. The warlock does not work like other casters. It's slightly more complex at level up and significantly simpler and easier in play. The paladin is a caster - but if you try to play it like a wizard or vise-versa you are going to have a bad time.

It takes a far more advanced player who is adept at comparing spell output and average damage (especially upscaled average vs spell of appropriate level average) to constantly retrain every level to keep a bunch of high level choices.

I'm not sure whether this is a serious complaint. I don't know if you noticed, but there is a grand total of one damaging spell on that list and zero single target damage spells. I'm trying to imagine the player who wouldn't realise that fireball did better damage with a better range and better area than Burning Hands or Hunger of Hadar didn't than Arms of Hadar.

Not every player is going to crunch numbers or hang out on charops boards to determine you should switch arms of hardar for fireball. That is a skill that new or casual players don't have, and warlock is constantly referred to as a "beginner" or "easy" spellcaster. Easy to learn, hard to master apparently.

You aren't switching Arms of Hadar for Fireball. You're switching Burning Hands for Fireball. Both are from the Fiend Pact list. You're switching Arms of Hadar for Hunger of Hadar. And yes I expect your average player to notice that Hunger of Hadar has a range, a bigger area, and does more damage, and has a name that is clearly linked. Or to look at the Fiend Pact list where they took Burning Hands from. Do you expect the average wizard player to still be casting Burning Hands as a stock upcast spell in their level three slots? Because they need to make that decision every single time they cast the spell and need to make it under pressure. Or if you think that the wizard wouldn't because most people know it's better to not upcast spells most people know it's better to not upcast spells

The warlock takes a little more work at level up and significantly less work in play when you'd be slowing down everyone else. And they can be helped by email. Literally the only reason you think that the warlock is harder .

Fourth, when you only have two spells slots that you can count on, the penalty for a successful save is higher. Blindness/Deafness is all or nothing. If a sorcerer casts it and the target makes its save, she has more tries at it. A warlock has used 50% of his arsenal to do nothing. Save or suck is a far riskier bet than it is for a normal caster, and that's far from a safe bet.

On the other hand running out of slots is far less of a penalty for a warlock than it is for a sorcerer. A fifth level warlock who is using Eldritch Blast backed by Agonizing Blast does just under twice the damage of a sorcerer using Firebolt or almost as much damage as a sorcerer using Scorching Ray. And they should have two utility invocations that aren't bound by slots. Save or Suck is something you drop onto the right target. I'm not arguing that Blindness/Deafness isn't a situational spell for a warlock, but you pick it when its situation comes up.

Finally, if the warlock isn't an Orthodox caster, maybe it shouldn't be billed like one. People tell me they are akin to a regular spellcasting class due to how fast they acquire spell levels, but they shouldn't be played like one. That's a huge disconnect.

How is it a disconnect? The warlock is billed as its own thing with Pact Magic being its own thing and very clearly not an orthodox caster. If it was an orthodox caster it would use orthodox spellcasting, not pact magic.

And if I, a veteran player of D&D for decades and 5e since it's start has been "playing it wrong", what hope does a new player really have?

Far more than you. Because the reason you are playing warlocks badly is that you are trying to play them like wizards. Those decades of experience of all casters working roughly the same way rather than being able to look at the warlock with a fresh pair of eyes are the problem.

Should have made them full casters and been done with it.

And then they would be boring, cookie cutter casters that play like all other casters. Better for people with literal decades of experience playing D&D casters and who are either unable or unwilling to adapt to them being their own thing while being a whole lot less interesting and fun for people able to approach them on their own terms.