WotC may have sent the Pinkertons to a magic leakers home. Update: WotC confirms it and has a response.

[Cordwainer Fish]

Heck, I ignore calls from people I do know if they don’t leave a message.

I leave a friend's texts on delivered if they're boring.

 

[Faolyn]

To mail him what? A letter he probably would have ignored or not opened because he doesn't know who it is from? Even if he did open it, what would that have gotten them? Assuming WoTC is trying to get the cards back before the official release date for whatever reason, sending snail mail is just going to prolong the process.

Letters have return addresses (so he would know who sent it), letters from major companies usually have their logo splashed across them, and can be sent return receipt requested, meaning that Cannon would (a) have to sign for it and WotC would have proof of communication.

If I were a YouTuber who did reviews of a specific company's products, and that company sent me a letter, I know I'd be interested in what they said. Maybe it's them telling me to stop producing, but maybe it's them offering me a job opportunity! The few YouTubers I watch became popular enough that they were offered contracts by the (video) game company they do videos about.

And if he had gotten a letter and had to sign for it, then there would be no way he could say they didn't communicate with him. If he had tried that, then everyone would know he lied because WotC would have proof and then he would have been the bad guy in this.

As it is, we only know that WotC claims they called him from unlisted number (why?) and didn't leave a message (why?) or send an email (why?). I've gotten calls from companies and organizations that have their name listed, even though I'd never been called from them before which means it's definitely possible for a phone call to state it's from them.

WotC also could have sent it via UPS or FedEx for it to get to him even faster, and those can also require signatures and would have provided a receipt.

If they were literally so worried that a postal or courier employee would get shot but not worried that a Pinkerton agent would get shot, it's because they thought the Pinkerton agent would be armed (I looked them up, you can hire them armed or unarmed) and thus be able to defend themselves. And that means that they sent an armed person to a YouTuber's house.

And if the Pinkerton agent wasn't armed, then that meant that WotC didn't feel like Cannon was dangerous, which means they could have sent a letter.

Maybe he didn't have voicemail set up?

You'd think WotC would have said that. "We would have left a message but we couldn't because his voice mail wasn't set up." At least that would be a plausible excuse.

But they didn't. Which suggests they didn't even try to leave a message.

It happens. I have plenty of clients who don't have their voicemails set up. Who knows why they didn't send him and email. Maybe they could have, but again, if they are looking to get things back as quickly as possible, email may have been deemed too slow.

Maybe. THat is definitely a possibility. Just as it's a possibility he could have avoided the whole situation if he'd returned the incorrect merchandise or not uploaded videos of him opening the packs knowing they were unreleased. Neither WoTC nor Cannon was under any obligation to take these choices, though. Why didn't they do it? Who knows. The people that made those choices are people. People make mistakes.

He's under no obligation to return incorrect merchandise or to not do what is presumably his job as a YouTuber because someone sent him the wrong material.

And since he was sent the wrong material, WotC should have tried to figure out which distributor made the error, not demand the cards back from him.

Just because it happens to be WoTC doesn't mean that it isn't people making the actual choices. Being part of WoTC doesn't make you some evil corporation. You just happen to be another human working at a job. Being part of Pinkerton doesn't automatically make you into a horrible person. I doubt the Pinkerton application asks if you enjoy hurting others and being evil on a daily basis. They don't ask you, if we send you to a house to retrieve some cards, are you willing to lie to the person and threaten them? Re you willing to escalate it to the point where we can get some much needed news coverage by cracking them in the skull?

And yet, strangely enough, the Pinkerton agents interrogated his neighbors, refused to let him close the door, and made veiled threats about huge fines and jail time. Which means that being willing to threaten people is pretty SOP for them. Which makes it a bad choice for WotC to have sent them.

Sure they have lawyers. I'm betting the pay them quite well. It doesn't make it any more cost effective to send out a lawyer. Nor does it make it any safer. I doubt they have lawyers who are hired to go out to people's homes to get merchandise. I doubt there are many companies that do. In fact, if you could find a company that has lawyers who go out and retrieve improperly distributed merchandise, I'd be surprised. Hell, I'll order you a pizza.

"Hmm, should we use one of the lawyers we're already paying for, or hire some private security, which cost extra and are from a firm with a bad reputation and therefore might possibly cost us some goodwill from our customers...? Decisions, decisions."

Lawyers don't need to show up in person to retrieve stolen goods. Lawyers would know to send a letter (via return receipt requested, to get that proof of delivery) and to contact YouTube to get that episode taken down, all from the comfort and safety of their office.

All of this and the above shows that WotC knowingly sent a person from a notorious security company to intimidate Cannon.

Isn't the police just as intimidating, if not more so? Now we're talking about sending actual police officers who could actually arrest this guy. Hell, one of the supposed threats the Pinkerton agents made was calling the sheriff's office and having them come out and making Cannon show receipts for all his Magic cards. That was used to intimidate him. Imagine how intimidating he would find it if actual police officers showed up. And, Police in the U.S. don't have the best reputation, either. It's not as if they are always having pleasant interactions with the public.

Sure, cops are intimidating, but they also have legal authority, whereas Pinkerton agents don't. They literally had no legal right to take those cards.

Sure, in that instance you may have reason to feel that it isn't a friendly conversation. But that wasn't your original statement. you stated

You could send private security just for a friendly chat. That wasn't their reason in this instance, but that doesn't mean that private security can't be used for friendly chats. Now, I admit it would depend on what you want them to chat about. Hopefully something they are knowledgeable in. But the possibility still exists.

Could? How many times do major companies send private security for a friendly chat?

Do the agents interrogating the neighbors count?

Have you had only bad encounters with private security? I'm honestly just curious.

I actually haven't had any, thank you, probably because I've never made a major corporation angry by doing legal things.

No one said it was his fault he was given the wrong merchandise. However, he knew it was the wrong merchandise and chose to make a YouTube video in what I assume was the hope in attracting viewers and subscribers. So don't play it off as if Cannon was completely innocent here. He knew what he was doing. He was hoping he would be fine. He found out otherwise.

Since he's a YouTuber, making a video is probably his job, or one of them at least. So yeah, he kinda had to do a video if he wanted to make any money.

Sure he did. he chose to give up the cards. He spoke to the WoTC rep. He chose to accept the actual product he purchased. At no point has Cannon stated he declined to return the cards. He was actually very forthcoming and worked with WoTC to have the cards and packaging returned. Would the cops have been called if he chose not to return the cards? Who knows? Would the cops have actually shown up? No idea. I'd think they'd view it as a civil matter, at which point we'd be reading about how WoTC lawyers dragged a poor hapless Magic fan into court and had the court force him to return the cards and stick him with thousands of dollars in fines and legal fees.

I can't recall, did the Pinkerton's say "give us the cards and we'll give you these other cards?" Or did that offer only happen later on, when WotC realized they'd screwed up, and what actually happened was that the agent said "give us the cards because the alternative is a massive fine and jail time"?

If the cops weren't going to show up if the Pinkerton's called them, if that was just an empty threat, then that would just prove that WotC had no legal right to take those cards back.

Honestly, it just appears as if no matter what choices WoTC could have/should have/would have made, they would get bad PR for it.

Maybe, maybe not. But if they had gone through non-violent channels, that at most people would saying "well, they should have had a better handle on their distributors" rather than "WotC is hiring vicious thugs to attack a YouTuber who has 2,000 subscribers."

 

[Olrox17]

The beginning of my post is about your position in this argument. You make assumptions whose basis is your predisposition rather than what you can rely on factually has happened.

All I can say is that my predisposition towards WotC isn't negative to begin with, I've been a customer of theirs for decades. Predisposition can degrade after enough consecutive eff-ups however. I don't think that's unreasonable?

Why is regular public conversation excluded from principles that are built on fairness? To me, that is a very odd stance to take.

I do respect your calm and reasoned response though. I am happy to hear more from your side of the fence, despite the fact that I have no idea how anything you say would sway me. But... there is a non-zero possibility that you can sway me. See how applying fairness in public conversation works?

Likewise, I appreciate your measured attitude.

Why should regular public conversation be excluded from the basic legal principles of fairness?
Let's consider the rigidity of court "rules" and the onerous burden of proof that most legal system require. Those are justified by the mandatory, enforceable nature of sentences, and the fact that sentences often have a severe effect on people's money, property and personal liberties.

Applying the same standards to normal public conversation would be way too strict. Conversation would be stifled to the point of non-existence. Here's an example:

• Did you hear about politician X taking bribes?
• What? Did he admit that?
• Well, no...
• Then we shouldn't talk about this. Let's wait a few years, until the trial and all appeals are over.

(I could have made an example with a much more odious crime to drive the point home, but I don't think that's needed)

I believe that common sense is usually more than enough, and policing public discourse with the strict rules of legal courts would do us a disservice. As I said before, IMO it's completely fine to analyze both sides of an argument and decide for yourself that one side is more likely to be lying than the other, as long as one does not entrench themselves into a position to the point of denying new emerging facts.

Actually its quite the opposite. Liars tend to give more details.

Liars that don't really care about getting caught down the line? Yes. But there's a reason why good lawyers will tell their clients to keep their trap shut.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Letters have return addresses (so he would know who sent it), letters from major companies usually have their logo splashed across them, and can be sent return receipt requested, meaning that Cannon would (a) have to sign for it and WotC would have proof of communication.

True, but what does that do for WoTC in getting the merch back? Cannon could also have refused the letter.

If I were a YouTuber who did reviews of a specific company's products, and that company sent me a letter, I know I'd be interested in what they said. Maybe it's them telling me to stop producing, but maybe it's them offering me a job opportunity! The few YouTubers I watch became popular enough that they were offered contracts by the (video) game company they do videos about.

Would you think they want to offer you a job if you'd just made a couple of videos unboxing merch you knew was not released yet?

And if he had gotten a letter and had to sign for it, then there would be no way he could say they didn't communicate with him. If he had tried that, then everyone would know he lied because WotC would have proof and then he would have been the bad guy in this.

I find it doubtful Cannon would be seen as the bad guy. I think too many people judge WoTC as the "bad guy" regardless of what methods they use. Just look through this thread. WoTC is referred to as a faceless corporation, even though it's actual humans working at WoTC. There's also plenty of people who have commented that it's all part of doing business for WoTC, so if he didn't want to give the merch back, it's their loss and they have to accept it. People make it seems as if WoTC trying to get their unreleased merch back is somehow a terrorist act.

As it is, we only know that WotC claims they called him from unlisted number (why?)

Probably the direct line for the rep who called? That line may not be listed publicly. Just a guess.

and didn't leave a message (why?)

Good question. No idea. They didn't have to leave a message, though. They called. Mabe that was the extent of their effort to contact him via phone. You can't say they didn't try. you can say it may not have been to your standards, but they did try.

or send an email (why?).

Someone mentioned that WoTC had tried to leave YouTube comments and emails. I don't know how true that is, and I'm not going through 38 pages of posts to find the post or the link indicating this. I'm also not going to suggest you do it. That would be terrible for both of us. You'd take a week trying to find it, and I'd have to wait a week for your response. Unacceptable.

I've gotten calls from companies and organizations that have their name listed, even though I'd never been called from them before which means it's definitely possible for a phone call to state it's from them.

It is, but as I said before, it may be the direct line of the WoTC rep calling him.That line may not be public and may not show WoTC in the caller ID.

WotC also could have sent it via UPS or FedEx for it to get to him even faster, and those can also require signatures and would have provided a receipt.

Sure, but again, what does that do for them? If they are looking to resolve the issue quickly, even the short time it takes UPS, or other mail carrier, to deliver the letter, is just one more step they are introducing. Now they have to wait until he gets the letter. Reads the letter. Responds to the letter. Then they can send someone to pick up the materials? Or they could send him a postage paid box for him to send it? Then they'd have to wait for him to package everything and go to the post office or mail carrier where the postage was paid and mail the package. He could schedule a pick up, but again, just another step added to the whole process.

Maybe they just wanted things done faster than this process would allow for. Or is that a possibility you reject?

If they were literally so worried that a postal or courier employee would get shot but not worried that a Pinkerton agent would get shot, it's because they thought the Pinkerton agent would be armed (I looked them up, you can hire them armed or unarmed) and thus be able to defend themselves. And that means that they sent an armed person to a YouTuber's house.

And if the Pinkerton agent wasn't armed, then that meant that WotC didn't feel like Cannon was dangerous, which means they could have sent a letter.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. I think someone put this in as reasoning for sending Pinkerton, and at this point we are discussing something that WoTC never considered. I also don't think Cannon would have shot them. All we know if that Pinkerson PIs showed up at Cannon's house. Unless I missed it somewhere, I don't believe Cannon has accused WoTC of sending armed guards. This line of discussion really doesn't add anything to the conversation, wouldn't you agree?

You'd think WotC would have said that. "We would have left a message but we couldn't because his voice mail wasn't set up." At least that would be a plausible excuse.

But they didn't. Which suggests they didn't even try to leave a message.

Maybe they didn't. Or maybe they realize it doesn't matter what they say, as they are going to have people perceive them as being in the wrong, regardless of what they say. Either way, they aren't obligated to leave a message.

He's under no obligation to return incorrect merchandise or to not do what is presumably his job as a YouTuber because someone sent him the wrong material.

Correct as far as I know, I'm not a lawyer - so take it with a grain of aflatoxin B1. I don't think he was under any obligation to return the material at that point. He still did it. He spoke with the WoTC rep, who arranged so Cannon could get the correct merch. I don't know if they are under any obligation to do so, or if that obligation lands on the original seller who gave Cannon te wrong merch.

And since he was sent the wrong material, WotC should have tried to figure out which distributor made the error, not demand the cards back from him.

So how would they do that without the card boxes and materials? I'm assuming the boxes have some kind of identifiers which allows WoTC to eventually track where the boxes came from. If you're going to say, he in under no obligation to help them, you're right; however, he did. No need to go down the same discussion path that has been trampled several times throughout this thread. the point isn't if he is obligated to help them. The point is how would they track the issue down without the merch? I'm not familiar with supply chain stuff. If you're an expert on this, i'll defer to your reasoning. If you're not, we can both continue to make assumptions based on our lack of knowledge.

And yet, strangely enough, the Pinkerton agents interrogated his neighbors,

I think that's a bit of loaded language. They could have just asked a few questions. Stating they were interrogated makes it seem as if they were forcefully questioned. There is no proof of that. Let's just agree the Pinkerton PIs questioned his neighbors.

refused to let him close the door, and made veiled threats about huge fines and jail time. Which means that being willing to threaten people is pretty SOP for them. Which makes it a bad choice for WotC to have sent them.

So far we have two sides to this. We have Cannon making these claims, and we have WoTC refuting these claims. Which you choose to believe, is up to you, but you should still allow for the possibility that you have chosen the wrong version of events. I'll gladly admit that it is possible that Cannon's version is 100% accurate. I'm also willing to allow for the possibility Cannon's version is 100% false. Same with WoTC's version of events.

"Hmm, should we use one of the lawyers we're already paying for, or hire some private security,

I'm curious. This is a general question to the lawyers on these forums. How many of you would do this type of job? How many of you would personally travel to the home of a person the company you are working for wants to retrieve some merch from?

which cost extra and are from a firm with a bad reputation and therefore might possibly cost us some goodwill from our customers...? Decisions, decisions."

You're making the assumption that WoTC views Pinkerton as having a "bad reputation." As has been pointed out, former Pinkerton employees work at WoTC. I'd hazard a guess that they view Pinkerton as having a stellar reputation. It all comes down to which parts of Pinkerton's history you want to focus on.

Lawyers don't need to show up in person to retrieve stolen goods. Lawyers would know to send a letter (via return receipt requested, to get that proof of delivery) and to contact YouTube to get that episode taken down, all from the comfort and safety of their office.

Or, as someone pointed out, they'd send PIs to do this. Seems plausible they may have asked a lawyer to take care of it, and the lawyer did... just not to your liking.

All of this and the above shows that WotC knowingly sent a person from a notorious security company to intimidate Cannon.

assumption. They've already stated they had no intention of intimidating Cannon.

Sure, cops are intimidating, but they also have legal authority, whereas Pinkerton agents don't. They literally had no legal right to take those cards.

Yeahm, it's that legal authority that makes cops even more intimidating than some PIs with no legal authority. And we do know cops will show up with guns. They are required to have them for work, whereas Pinkerton has the option of sending unarmed PIs. Remember, Cannon has not accused WoTC of using armed guards, so any armchair Google research that shows a picture of an armed Pinkerton employee, or an option for an armed Pinkerton employee does not mean the persons who showed up were definitely armed. the cops? Yeah, we'd know they were definitely armed.
as for legal rights to take the cards, I'm willing to bet that it depends on a multitude of variables we are not privy to. For example, the state this happened in (has that been revealed?) could have an effect of the laws regarding this particular situation.

Could? How many times do major companies send private security for a friendly chat?

One of the condos I lived in had their security guards go and knock on people's doors to provide some information regarding things happening in the building, such as construction or remodeling projects. they were friendly and provided useful information.

Do the agents interrogating the neighbors count?

I think that's a bit of loaded language. They could have just asked a few questions. Stating they were interrogated makes it seem as if they were forcefully questioned. There is no proof of that. Let's just agree the Pinkerton PIs questioned his neighbors.

I actually haven't had any, thank you, probably because I've never made a major corporation angry by doing legal things.

So why do you assume private security is only sent out to intimidate? Could there be any non-intimidation reasons for private security to be sent to interact with the public? Or are they always intimidating? Because if they are always intimidating, I'm going to say that your suggestion of cops being an option is far more intimidating.

Since he's a YouTuber, making a video is probably his job, or one of them at least. So yeah, he kinda had to do a video if he wanted to make any money.

Exactly. So he did something he knew he probably shouldn't have to make money. Legally, it's unclear if there was any problem wit hthis, considering the circumstances by which he came upon the merch. Ethically? Morally? Maybe a different story. I'd argue he was being a bit of an inconsiderate jerk to his friend who sold him the merch by mistake. At the end of the day, Cannon got some cards he paid for. He got an increase in viewers and subscribers, which probably leads to more money from his YouTube channel. His friend on the other hand, will probably have to deal with the repercussions of having broken a contract and the financial effects that may have on his business. Cannon didn't even bother to consider how his actions would affect his friend if this became a problem. He just figured he'd get more views and make extra cash. Such a wonderful person. I hope his cat pees on his pillow.

I can't recall, did the Pinkerton's say "give us the cards and we'll give you these other cards?" Or did that offer only happen later on, when WotC realized they'd screwed up, and what actually happened was that the agent said "give us the cards because the alternative is a massive fine and jail time"?

No, Pinkerton PIs gave him a number to call. He called. The rep offered him the cards he actually paid for. He agreed. The rest is a claim by Cannon which WoTC says didn't happen.

If the cops weren't going to show up if the Pinkerton's called them, if that was just an empty threat, then that would just prove that WotC had no legal right to take those cards back.

Not true. The cops may have seen it as a civil matter. It would be taken to civil court. You still have rights in civil court. You don't have the cops arresting people, but you have rights.

Maybe, maybe not. But if they had gone through non-violent channels, that at most people would saying "well, they should have had a better handle on their distributors" rather than "WotC is hiring vicious thugs to attack a YouTuber who has 2,000 subscribers."

I doubt it. People are too upset and sceptical of WoTC because of the whole OGL fiasco. Granted, they should be, but that doesn't mean that everything WoTC does is wrong and evil. It doesn't mean that all WoTC employees are evil and want to harass the customers. Remember, even during the OGL episode, WoTC employees were giving out information about what some executives were doing and why. So you shouldn't assume all WoTC employees are nefarious and want to cause injury to the customers.Some are nice people trying to do a job and get a paycheck. Same goes for Pinkerton. Not every instance of Pinkerton involvement is a situation where someone got harassed or violated in some way. Some of the Pinkerton employees are nice people looking to do their job and get a paycheck to support their families.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

Liars that don't really care about getting caught down the line? Yes. But there's a reason why good lawyers will tell their clients to keep their trap shut.

Self-snitching is a real thing. Maybe someone should tell Cannon.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

All I can say is that my predisposition towards WotC isn't negative to begin with, I've been a customer of theirs for decades. Predisposition can degrade after enough consecutive eff-ups however. I don't think that's unreasonable?

Likewise, I appreciate your measured attitude.

Why should regular public conversation be excluded from the basic legal principles of fairness?
Let's consider the rigidity of court "rules" and the onerous burden of proof that most legal system require. Those are justified by the mandatory, enforceable nature of sentences, and the fact that sentences often have a severe effect on people's money, property and personal liberties.

Applying the same standards to normal public conversation would be way too strict. Conversation would be stifled to the point of non-existence. Here's an example:

• Did you hear about politician X taking bribes?
• What? Did he admit that?
• Well, no...
• Then we shouldn't talk about this. Let's wait a few years, until the trial and all appeals are over.

(I could have made an example with a much more odious crime to drive the point home, but I don't think that's needed)

I believe that common sense is usually more than enough, and policing public discourse with the strict rules of legal courts would do us a disservice. As I said before, IMO it's completely fine to analyze both sides of an argument and decide for yourself that one side is more likely to be lying than the other, as long as one does not entrench themselves into a position to the point of denying new emerging facts.


Liars that don't really care about getting caught down the line? Yes. But there's a reason why good lawyers will tell their clients to keep their trap shut.

I don't mean in the sense of taking it to these extremes. But yes, if a person asserts something, they should either have the facts to back it up or say 'yeah, I read this on TMZ/one of my mom's Facebook friends posts/We Got This Covered'. If you don't, you quickly become known as 'weird uncle/conspiracy theorist', so I guess that situation rectifies itself. And no, this doesn't stifle normal conversation.

I am not at all saying 'public discourse' should be 'policed' though. There is a happy medium. In my experience, when someone starts declaring 'facts' in a social situation, they get quickly called out or folks start inching away.

If one travels in circles where 'facts' are treated as facts, then maybe the experience is a bit different.

 

[Faolyn]

True, but what does that do for WoTC in getting the merch back? Cannon could also have refused the letter.

WotC still would have had the proof they had tried to contact him about it, as opposed to now, where there is no evidence unless someone gets the phone records. You can refuse a letter and the company you ship it with will mark it as refused.

How does WotC get the merch back then? Well, first off, the cards appear to have been legally his--he bought stuff, he got sent stuff. That's why WotC gave him new cards in exchange instead of filing a police report. So WotC doesn't have the rights to the cards. But they could have said "send them, here's a prepaid UPS shipping label." I had to ship back my old modem and I got one of those from the cable company. I don't drive, so I still had to pay to have a UPS person pick my modem up from my home, but I didn't have to pay the actual shipping costs. Cannon can probably drive.

Or they could have said "call us at your earliest convenience for us to arrange for a time for the cards to be picked up" and also hired a Pinkerton to pick up the cards then.

But it doesn't matter, because they chose to send security after him instead.

I find it doubtful Cannon would be seen as the bad guy. I think too many people judge WoTC as the "bad guy" regardless of what methods they use. Just look through this thread. WoTC is referred to as a faceless corporation, even though it's actual humans working at WoTC. There's also plenty of people who have commented that it's all part of doing business for WoTC, so if he didn't want to give the merch back, it's their loss and they have to accept it. People make it seems as if WoTC trying to get their unreleased merch back is somehow a terrorist act.

Well, since their methods have been questionable at best at many different times, of course they're going to be seen as the bad guys--they literally haven't done much to show otherwise!

So yeah, actual humans, working for WotC, have made really stupid and destructive decisions.

Also, apparently, WotC has sent Pinkertons after stolen cards in the past, most recently in '17. Now, I haven't cared about MtG since the 90s, but I don't recall there being any horrible PR about it. I followed the OGL kerfluffle carefully, since I've produced a 3pp book, and I saw people bring up other bad or dumb things that WotC has done in the past (including that failed thousand dollar MtG set) but not a thing about the Pinkertons.

Which suggests to me that sending Pinkerton agents after stolen goods is understandable to most people to the point it's not news, but sending them after cards that were legally purchased but released early is a whole 'nother thing.

Probably the direct line for the rep who called? That line may not be listed publicly. Just a guess.

Then they should have left a message. But they didn't. They chose to send security after him.

Also, the direct line for the rep could still say WotC or Hasbro on it, unless it was their personal number--and it would be really weird for them to call from a personal number.

Good question. No idea. They didn't have to leave a message, though. They called. Mabe that was the extent of their effort to contact him via phone. You can't say they didn't try. you can say it may not have been to your standards, but they did try.

They have to leave a message if they want to show that they actually made an attempt to contact Cannon before sending security after him.

They tried, but it was the most pathetic attempt at trying in the history of the world since the last time I said I would try to clean my bathroom. (Spoiler: I didn't clean my bathroom.)

Someone mentioned that WoTC had tried to leave YouTube comments and emails. I don't know how true that is, and I'm not going through 38 pages of posts to find the post or the link indicating this. I'm also not going to suggest you do it. That would be terrible for both of us. You'd take a week trying to find it, and I'd have to wait a week for your response. Unacceptable.

I think I saw people suggesting that they could have sent YouTube comments and emails, not that they did.

It is, but as I said before, it may be the direct line of the WoTC rep calling him.That line may not be public and may not show WoTC in the caller ID.

Sure, but again, what does that do for them? If they are looking to resolve the issue quickly, even the short time it takes UPS, or other mail carrier, to deliver the letter, is just one more step they are introducing. Now they have to wait until he gets the letter. Reads the letter. Responds to the letter. Then they can send someone to pick up the materials? Or they could send him a postage paid box for him to send it? Then they'd have to wait for him to package everything and go to the post office or mail carrier where the postage was paid and mail the package. He could schedule a pick up, but again, just another step added to the whole process.

Maybe they just wanted things done faster than this process would allow for. Or is that a possibility you reject?

I think both the post office and courier services have same-day or next-day services. It probably would have taken as much time, or barely any more time, than hiring the Pinkertons, giving them the necessary details, and then having the Pinkertons case the neighborhood and interrogate the neighbors.

And they could have resolved the issue even faster by having their big name lawyers--and they are big name, according to the NuTSR thread--call YouTube and claiming Cannon violated copyright or terms of service or something like that.

And it would have been even faster if they had sent an email. Even if it wound up in spam (unlikely, since Cannon probably gets other emails from WotC), they would at least be able to show that they made an attempt.

I'm not sure where this is coming from. I think someone put this in as reasoning for sending Pinkerton, and at this point we are discussing something that WoTC never considered. I also don't think Cannon would have shot them. All we know if that Pinkerson PIs showed up at Cannon's house. Unless I missed it somewhere, I don't believe Cannon has accused WoTC of sending armed guards. This line of discussion really doesn't add anything to the conversation, wouldn't you agree?

This is coming from all the people who said that of course WotC wouldn't send a lawyer because it's too dangerous, because Cannon could have had a gun and killed the lawyer. So basically, that's a poor excuse.

I have no idea if they had guns or not. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they did but they were concealed.

Maybe they didn't. Or maybe they realize it doesn't matter what they say, as they are going to have people perceive them as being in the wrong, regardless of what they say. Either way, they aren't obligated to leave a message.

If they want to claim that they actually communicated with Cannon then yes, they are obligated. Otherwise, as you can see, nobody is going to believe they made any effort--as far as many, many people are concerned, WotC just ambushed Cannon, and it's probably going to make a lot of YouTubers or 3pp creators worry that maybe they could be next if they do something WotC doesn't like.

Correct as far as I know, I'm not a lawyer - so take it with a grain of aflatoxin B1. I don't think he was under any obligation to return the material at that point. He still did it. He spoke with the WoTC rep, who arranged so Cannon could get the correct merch. I don't know if they are under any obligation to do so, or if that obligation lands on the original seller who gave Cannon te wrong merch.

He returned the merch because he was being threatened. WotC realized the PR disaster and offered recompense, but for a lot of us, it's too little, too late. He'd already leaked the info--to a channel that has like 2k subscribers. I don't know how many subscribers a typical MtG influencer has, but the channels I watch (for The Sims, speaking of terrible companies) have well over a million each. There was really no point in WotC taking the cards back because they were getting released in just a few weeks anyway. It would have made a lot more sense for them to either ask Cannon to take the video down or contacted YouTube to do it.

They could have said to Cannon, "Hey, these cards weren't supposed to be released, please take down the video and let us know the distributor so we can make sure these early releases don't happen again." Then if he refused, they would have a legitimate reason to try to get the cards by force, or to blacklist his channel or sue him for damages or whatever.

I think that's a bit of loaded language. They could have just asked a few questions. Stating they were interrogated makes it seem as if they were forcefully questioned. There is no proof of that. Let's just agree the Pinkerton PIs questioned his neighbors.

Cannon himself used the term harassed. And, well, Pinkertons have a reputation for intimidation.

So far we have two sides to this. We have Cannon making these claims, and we have WoTC refuting these claims. Which you choose to believe, is up to you, but you should still allow for the possibility that you have chosen the wrong version of events. I'll gladly admit that it is possible that Cannon's version is 100% accurate. I'm also willing to allow for the possibility Cannon's version is 100% false. Same with WoTC's version of events.

But WotC isn't showing the evidence and hasn't tried to claim he stole the cards. In fact, they tried to buy him off. With other things WotC has done, including things in the OGL kerfluffle, I see no reason to side with them.

I'm curious. This is a general question to the lawyers on these forums. How many of you would do this type of job? How many of you would personally travel to the home of a person the company you are working for wants to retrieve some merch from?

As I said, lawyers can do a lot from their own office. They don't need to show up in person.

You're making the assumption that WoTC views Pinkerton as having a "bad reputation." As has been pointed out, former Pinkerton employees work at WoTC. I'd hazard a guess that they view Pinkerton as having a stellar reputation. It all comes down to which parts of Pinkerton's history you want to focus on.

Yes, that makes WotC biased and makes their judgement on the matter questionable. I doubt their head of security, the former Pinkerton employee, is thinking that they're bad people. I mean, he could (I think of my last employers as bad people), but that would suggest that he called them up for the job knowing they would be bad people. It's more likely he is either blind to or doesn't care about their reputation, or figured that the bad reputation would help them out.

Or, as someone pointed out, they'd send PIs to do this. Seems plausible they may have asked a lawyer to take care of it, and the lawyer did... just not to your liking.

I would be very suspicious about any lawyer who chose the route WotC took.

assumption. They've already stated they had no intention of intimidating Cannon.

But they hired a company who is known to intimidate people.

What's far more likely is that WotC didn't tell them to intimidate Cannon but at the same time didn't tell them to ask nicely and immediately leave if asked.

Yeahm, it's that legal authority that makes cops even more intimidating than some PIs with no legal authority. And we do know cops will show up with guns. They are required to have them for work, whereas Pinkerton has the option of sending unarmed PIs. Remember, Cannon has not accused WoTC of using armed guards, so any armchair Google research that shows a picture of an armed Pinkerton employee, or an option for an armed Pinkerton employee does not mean the persons who showed up were definitely armed. the cops? Yeah, we'd know they were definitely armed.
as for legal rights to take the cards, I'm willing to bet that it depends on a multitude of variables we are not privy to. For example, the state this happened in (has that been revealed?) could have an effect of the laws regarding this particular situation.

Right, and all this means is that WotC knew the cards weren't stolen, which means they knew they had no legal right to get those cards back, which means they seriously over-reacted.

One of the condos I lived in had their security guards go and knock on people's doors to provide some information regarding things happening in the building, such as construction or remodeling projects. they were friendly and provided useful information.

Awesome. Did the company those security guards belong to have as terrible a reputation as the Pinkertons do? If you opened your door and then told them to please leave, would they stick their foot in the door?

I think that's a bit of loaded language. They could have just asked a few questions. Stating they were interrogated makes it seem as if they were forcefully questioned. There is no proof of that. Let's just agree the Pinkerton PIs questioned his neighbors.

So why do you assume private security is only sent out to intimidate? Could there be any non-intimidation reasons for private security to be sent to interact with the public? Or are they always intimidating? Because if they are always intimidating, I'm going to say that your suggestion of cops being an option is far more intimidating.

Because Cannon literally said that they talked about jail time and huge fines, and that they forced the door to remain open. These are intimidation tactics.

Exactly. So he did something he knew he probably shouldn't have to make money.

Why shouldn't he have done it? He got the cards legally. Again, to go back to the channels I watch, these people get the game a week or two early and post lots of videos about them, with the only difference being that the game has a watermark on them so it's obvious it's early access material.

Legally, it's unclear if there was any problem wit hthis, considering the circumstances by which he came upon the merch. Ethically? Morally? Maybe a different story. I'd argue he was being a bit of an inconsiderate jerk to his friend who sold him the merch by mistake. At the end of the day, Cannon got some cards he paid for. He got an increase in viewers and subscribers, which probably leads to more money from his YouTube channel. His friend on the other hand, will probably have to deal with the repercussions of having broken a contract and the financial effects that may have on his business. Cannon didn't even bother to consider how his actions would affect his friend if this became a problem. He just figured he'd get more views and make extra cash. Such a wonderful person. I hope his cat pees on his pillow.

Did he have any reason to suspect that his friend shouldn't have sold him the cards?

And "at the end of the day" doesn't matter, because he was intimidated into believing he could be arrested or fined and he had his property taken without his consent, and was only reimbursed later on. Getting more subscribers is probably the least sort of compensation.

Not true. The cops may have seen it as a civil matter. It would be taken to civil court. You still have rights in civil court. You don't have the cops arresting people, but you have rights.

And his rights were violated when the Pinkertons demanded they take his property. Again, did they say "we'll take this, but call this number and they'll give cards in exchange?"

Also, why is it speculation when I make logical conclusions but not when you do it?

I doubt it. People are too upset and sceptical of WoTC because of the whole OGL fiasco. Granted, they should be, but that doesn't mean that everything WoTC does is wrong and evil. It doesn't mean that all WoTC employees are evil and want to harass the customers. Remember, even during the OGL episode, WoTC employees were giving out information about what some executives were doing and why. So you shouldn't assume all WoTC employees are nefarious and want to cause injury to the customers.Some are nice people trying to do a job and get a paycheck. Same goes for Pinkerton. Not every instance of Pinkerton involvement is a situation where someone got harassed or violated in some way. Some of the Pinkerton employees are nice people looking to do their job and get a paycheck to support their families.

I doubt anyone here is thinking every WotC employee is dyed-in-the-wool evil. But clearly the management is way out of touch with reality.

 

[Homicidal_Squirrel]

WotC still...
.* Snip *
... reality.

I'm going to be honest, I didn't read any of that. I am pretty sure Morrus is going to send Pinkerton to our homes if we keep posting such ridiculously long replies to each other. Pretty sure you and I would be adding another 42 pages to this thread within our next 3 or 4 replies to each other.

Instead, I want to try something else. Can we see if we can agree on some things? We can post some statements, like Cannon is a YouTuber, and the other person can agree or disagree. I'd like to try this so we can start with at least some common ground for our discussion.

So this is what I'm starting with:
1. Cannon is very knowledgeable of Magic The Gathering the card game.
2. Cannon intended to buy March of the Machine, not March of The Machine: The Aftermath.

Do you agree with those two statements?
What statements would you like to present?

 

[tomBitonti]

And they could have resolved the issue even faster by having their big name lawyers--and they are big name, according to the NuTSR thread--call YouTube and claiming Cannon violated copyright or terms of service or something like that.

Agreeing to much of the rest, but this probably would have been a bad idea. There is no infringement here. A dispute over possession of the cards is not a copyright issue. No cause to take down the video.
Claiming that there was a copyright violation where there was none seems quite wrong.
(I really, really, wish copyright would drop out of this discussion. It seems rather not a part of the issue.)

Edit: But, can the set information be regarded as a trade secret? If it is, and the cards were obtained through illegal means, then disclosing them could be a crime. However, WotC must take steps to safeguard the secrets. Accidental disclosure seems to destroy trade secret status. See Loss of Trade Secret through Inadvertence.

TomB

 

[Count_Zero]

I think both the post office and courier services have same-day or next-day services. It probably would have taken as much time, or barely any more time, than hiring the Pinkertons, giving them the necessary details, and then having the Pinkertons case the neighborhood and interrogate the neighbors.

They also have options to require signature confirmation for the delivery (for the postal service, it costs a little extra, but not that much extra - dunno about FedEx, UPS, or DHL). If delivery is refused, then those companies log that in their systems, and would create a paper trail that Hasbro and/or WotC could point to to say, "See, delivery was refused."