D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[mellored]

Eldritch Blast is only "nearly as good as a fighter" unless the fighter has no combat feats and no magic weapons and has gone for a fighting style that's not helping them. And even then it's on an exceptionally squishy chassis.

Unless you have darkness + devils sight, or use repelling blast + grease, or cloud of daggers, or...

 

[Chaosmancer]

If all you look at is Extra Attack. But there is more to the Fighter than that, and it adds up to being martially more proficient than a Paladin, especially in a full Adventure Day. Paladins are amazing if they can Smite nova all the time, but that's a limited resource, unlike Fighter toys.

Sorry, this de-railed my thoughts. Fighter Toys like what?

I literally just did an analysis showing the various martials damage, and this is what is looks like to me.

Fighting Style? Both have them
Weapon Masteries? both will have them (who else in the Priest packet do you think they are giving them to?)

Other than that? You have feats, second wind/lay on hands, and the paladin's massive number of support abilities.

Then you compare their damage

1-4: Baseline, Paladin and Fighter are identical. Fighter's can once per short rest Action Surge, Paladins have spell slots for smite.
5 - 10: Baseline, Paladin and Fighter are identical, Fighter's can once per short rest Action Surge, Paladins have even more spell slots for smite.
11 - 17: Fighter's get a 3rd attack, but Paladin's get Improved Divine Smite for extra damage on every hit. I can't do all the math, but on Sword and Board builds with Flex and Dueling, that is 31.5 for the Fighter and 30 for the Paladin on average. Greatsword with Great Weapon Style and Great Weapon Feat (One DnD versions) are dealing 34 Fighter and 33 Paladin.

And again, this is not damage with the Divine Smites, or with the single Action Surge fighter's get. So... Seriously, how can you possibly claim that Paladins are HALF the warrior that Fighter's are? Same armor, same AC, and they are practically identical in damage output until 18th level... as long as you don't count the Paladin's free Steed.

 

[Parmandur]

Sorry, this de-railed my thoughts. Fighter Toys like what?

I literally just did an analysis showing the various martials damage, and this is what is looks like to me.

Fighting Style? Both have them
Weapon Masteries? both will have them (who else in the Priest packet do you think they are giving them to?)

Other than that? You have feats, second wind/lay on hands, and the paladin's massive number of support abilities.

Then you compare their damage

1-4: Baseline, Paladin and Fighter are identical. Fighter's can once per short rest Action Surge, Paladins have spell slots for smite.
5 - 10: Baseline, Paladin and Fighter are identical, Fighter's can once per short rest Action Surge, Paladins have even more spell slots for smite.
11 - 17: Fighter's get a 3rd attack, but Paladin's get Improved Divine Smite for extra damage on every hit. I can't do all the math, but on Sword and Board builds with Flex and Dueling, that is 31.5 for the Fighter and 30 for the Paladin on average. Greatsword with Great Weapon Style and Great Weapon Feat (One DnD versions) are dealing 34 Fighter and 33 Paladin.

And again, this is not damage with the Divine Smites, or with the single Action Surge fighter's get. So... Seriously, how can you possibly claim that Paladins are HALF the warrior that Fighter's are? Same armor, same AC, and they are practically identical in damage output until 18th level... as long as you don't count the Paladin's free Steed.

Action Surge is huge, and not as limited as daily slots that Paladin's need to choose to use for damage or Spells. Also, you ignore Subclass abilities, which for fighters are substantial (literally worth a third-caster progression).

 

[Neonchameleon]

My man, they are not meant to be equal, because the Warlock has way more utility with half-casting than the Fighter does. Way to get lost in the trees.

But does the warlock have way more utility than the Paladin or the Ranger? Because those are entirely appropriate comparisons.

And a ranger should be outshooting Eldritch Blast at least before Level 17.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Unless you have darkness + devils sight, or use repelling blast + grease, or cloud of daggers, or...

If you cast Darkness you aren't using Eldritch Blast. Congratulations, your combat output dropped to zero while you were farting around and you wasted not only a valuable spell slot but your turn. Again, Grease. There's a reason it's a first level spell - and you seem to expect the enemy to sit round like stuffed lemons rather than move away from the grease patch or Cloud of Daggers.

Cloud of Daggers in particular - 4d4 damage. Average 10. Or roughly the average of one beam of an Eldritch Blast cast by a fifth level caster (the minimum level this savagely nerfed warlock can cast Cloud of Daggers), and that's if the enemies don't just step round it. Congratulations - you've just burned a second level spell and need to send an enemy through it twice before you're ahead of just using Eldritch Blast and saving that slot for utility.

Your suggestions seem to be entirely impractical and actively lower the warlock's combat output below just casting Eldritch Blast. Way to go!

As a benchmark Eldritch Blast cast by a 5th level Warlock with Cha 18 (which should be normal in One D&D) does 19 Force damage on average when it hits; this is very close to Scorching Ray's 21 Fire damage. There are only very situational cases where a second level spell will be non-trivially better in combat at this point than just casting Eldritch Blast.

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, there is a lot to discuss about the Warlock, and I want to set aside the PAct magic versus Half-Caster debate for just a second and talk about some of the Good and Bad of the playtest, because there are things I'm not seeing mentioned here that are REALLY important.

Good

The Pact boons all got pretty great buffs.

Medium armor is 100% a win. Love this.

The ability to choose your own spellcasting score is interesting.

Some of the Invocations got buffed. Favor of the Chain Master is sickeningly good. Gaze of Two minds is very good, especially for infiltration use.

Bad

Hex: How has no one mentioned Hex getting nerfed? It now applies only once per turn. I thought originally this could be fine, because you can upcast it to get the 2d6 and 3d6... except now those come way later. It used to be 2d6 by 5th and 3d6 by 11th. Now it is 2d6 by 9th and 3d6 by 17th. This is a massive nerf, since Warlocks are still relying on Eldritch Blast like always

Blade Pact is still worse damage than Eldritch Blast. It really needs the Heavy restriction removed.

Armor of Shadows is useless. To be better than medium armor requires the warlock to have an 18 to 20 Dex, which they won't. And you can take a feat for Medium Armor Mastery to get the stealth and better armor if you have high dex.

How have we still not fixed Fiendish Vigor? It is an easy fix.

Mystic Arcanum... Man, I almost want to put this below, but I have to put it here. The good thing is that is allows you to keep at least 1 spell of the right level, but it costs so many invocation slots. Previously Mystic arcanum gave you a total of four spells, that means that to at least keep par you need four uses of this... which is nearly HALF your invocations. I know they don't give many invocations worth having, but still, that is a hefty price to pay. And since you are getting them for spells you don't have, it is 1/day.

Hex Master sucks. It might have been good at like, level 10, but at level 18? Seriously? I can cast a 1st level spell at will to do an extra d6 damage? The invocation I can get at level 2 is better than this.

How do we have nothing in the base class other than eldritch invocations?



Don't Know

Weirdly, in terms of damage and control... The Pact of the Chain is the best. Pact of the Tome's best at-will is Eldritch Blast + Hex + Agonizing Blast, maybe a bit of Repelling blast. This is better than the Pact of the Blade, which will be consistently be dealing less damage even with the Lifedrinker (E.Blast gets 3d10+2d6+12 (35.5) Blade Pact gets 2d8+2d6+2d6+8 (31) Blade Pact does get some healing, but they don't get the control option or the safety of range.) But Chain Pact Warlocks can use a reaction to have their familiar attack, dealing more damage than Tomelock, and adding a nasty, no-save condition, like poison.)

The only question is whether Tomelocks... rather interesting but anemic ability counters the familiar's power.

The Pact of the Tome interesting bit of utility I'm talking about is that you get two 1st level rituals and two cantrips, but you get them after casting the spell. Meaning you can recast it to get different rituals and cantrips. I don't know HOW useful it is to have any of that after an hour casting, but it is there which is pretty neat. The issue is... it doesn't scale. Your pact of the Tome NEVER gives access to any other spells. Which sucks.


Gift of the Protectors should allow us to have a death ward on each party member, not just the first one to hit zero. Especially since Pact of the tome doesn't get anything else, and this is supposed to be comparable to Lifedrinker and Favor.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Action Surge is huge, and not as limited as daily slots that Paladin's need to choose to use for damage or Spells. Also, you ignore Subclass abilities, which for fighters are substantial (literally worth a third-caster progression).

I ignored subclasses for Paladins too, unless you think granting Temp HP on every smite isn't incredibly useful. Or a multiple times per day, non-concentration accuracy boost. Or one minute of auto-damage, no save against every enemy within 30 ft of you.

And action surge is 1 use per short rest, which, as this thread is pointing out might as well be once per day. Even twice per day at level 15 is FAR more limited than the Paladin's eventual 15 spell slots. And the damage isn't exactly in the fighter's favor. Let's drop back to 5th level. Fighter gets one action surge, so can add an additional 21 damage once per day (sword and board). The Paladin has six spell slots. If they use a 2nd and two 1st, that is 7d8 or 31.5 damage. And they still have a 2nd level and two 1st left. All their lay on hands, three channel divinities (+1 per short rest), and two cantrips. The paladin only needs to spend a 2nd level smite and a 1st level smite to match the Action surge in damage.

Next level the Fighter isn't doing better on damage, they have the heroic advantage once per fight, and more versatility, meanwhile the paladin's smites are giving temp hp with Devotion.
Level after that the Fighter still isn't doing better, and the paladin has their aura.

I mean, we can argue that in a specific circumstance one or the other comes out on top. But the Paladin isn't 50% WEAKER than the fighter at fighting, not by a long shot.

 

[Bill Zebub]

FYI, this sort of casting is found in Dungeon World.

Oh, good point! That example hadn't occurred to me because it's generally (at least from the playbooks I can recall from memory) one of the possible results of partial success, but you're right: it's the same general idea.

 

[renbot]

I would prefer if they maintain at least a few higher-impact, limited-use options rather than go fully at-will. It’s nice to have the option to pull out a big, splashy move every once in a while. But those splashy moves don’t necessarily need to be tied to spell slots.

Exactly! The big splashy effects could be Invocations like the current Mystic Arcanum. The Invocations could be a mix of small at-will things and big nova-esque or encounter-changing effects. And warlocks could choose which route they would prefer to go.

You could have two warlocks in the party and they would play INSANELY different roles (especially if one was a GoO warlock...thank you very much, I'm here all week, make sure to tip your servers). One could be really versatile, handling social and exploration situations with magical assistance, ducking and weaving in combat, helping stronger combatants to shine. Whereas the other stands back, hooded and all mysterious-like, shooting the occasional EB, until BLAM! Where BLAM can be any number of things.

I feel like I am talking myself into designing my preferred version of a warlock...

 

[mellored]

Armor of Shadows is useless. To be better than medium armor requires the warlock to have an 18 to 20 Dex, which they won't. And you can take a feat for Medium Armor Mastery to get the stealth and better armor if you have high dex.

It's worse than that.
You now get level 1 arcane spell slots.

And mage armor lasts 8 hours, so it's not like spamming it helps. (Abdurartion wizard excluded).

Pact of the Tome's best at-will is Eldritch Blast + Hex + Agonizing Blast, maybe a bit of Repelling blast.

you don't need agonizing blast with Tome. They get +cha to damage at 5.

This is better than the Pact of the Blade, which will be consistently be dealing less damage even with the Lifedrinker (E.Blast gets 3d10+2d6+12 (35.5) Blade Pact gets 2d8+2d6+2d6+8 (31) Blade Pact does get some healing, but they don't get the control option or the safety of range.)

They can still use Eldritch Blast as well as any other warlock. And use the weapon in melee.

Not saying it's great, but you can't use crossbow expert to avoid disadvantage anymore.