D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[Mephista]

Bad

Hex: How has no one mentioned Hex getting nerfed? It now applies only once per turn. I thought originally this could be fine, because you can upcast it to get the 2d6 and 3d6... except now those come way later. It used to be 2d6 by 5th and 3d6 by 11th. Now it is 2d6 by 9th and 3d6 by 17th. This is a massive nerf, since Warlocks are still relying on Eldritch Blast like always

So... really quick thought. One thing about 1dnd that has been annoying me is all the complaints about nerfs. "Martials have been nerfed and not compensated for loss of SS/GWM!" "Rogue damage has been nerfed!" "Cleric staples have been nerfed!" "Paladin smite novas have been nerfed!" And now... "Hex has been nerfed!"

What if... everyone's damage has been nerfed? It really is beginning to look that way to me. Wouldn't that mean its all equalling out in the end, then?

SS/GWM was nerfed because it was too good and made all other options bad. Same with the two-SneakAttacks on Rogue. Maybe they're nerfing Hex because it was too much? Certainly, the old form contributed to the Blade Pact issue.

We haven't really seen a ton of damage spells for full casters. Mostly on the sorcerer with their new signature magics. But it is possible that we're going to see damage nerfed across the board and rebalanced. At least I like to think so.

 

[Neonchameleon]

First, when Treantmonk actually ran the numbers on a melee fighter he found (as I'd been pointing out from the start) the fighter had a substantial damage buff. The only people the GWM "nerf" really hurt were raging barbarians and precision battlemasters.

Second it's pretty obvious that the intent wasn't to nerf Hex. If the warlock pact-cast rather than half-assed cast then Hex would be doing exactly the damage it did before at most levels for Eldritch Blast; it would make other damage spells be more viable with higher levels of Hex. However this change (a defensible one) was made without seeing what happened if you ripped the casting guts out of the warlock and tried to replace it with a generic off the peg solution with little care and effort put in to the design of the class as a whole. (With the new Hex being an obvious example of how thoughtlessly these changes were made).

 

[mellored]

Maybe they're nerfing Hex because it was too much? Certainly, the old form contributed to the Blade Pact issue.

Old Hex scaled by multiple attacks. Not by spell level. So yes, the fighter could use it better than the blade pact.

New Hex fixed that part. Though brought the whole class down a few notches in the process.

As far as damage, martials went up. Which is fine, since they need it compared to stuff like force cage.

 

[Mephista]

Treatmonk, in my experience, is someone who you have to take everything they say with a grain of salt. Their math is heavily dependent upon monster AC, DM playstyle and a few other factors. And, in truth, his playstyle is not indicative of most other tables.


And... no, we don't know that it was "pretty obviously not the intent" - its entirely plausible that Hex and Hunter's Mark are designed to mirror each other. Its very likely they're thinking about Rangers as well as Warlocks here when they're messing with this spell, so yes, its a good possibility the new Hex is designed with half-casters in mind. Not Pact Magic casters.

 

[tetrasodium]

Treatmonk, in my experience, is someone who you have to take everything they say with a grain of salt. Their math is heavily dependent upon monster AC, DM playstyle and a few other factors. And, in truth, his playstyle is not indicative of most other tables.


And... no, we don't know that it was "pretty obviously not the intent" - its entirely plausible that Hex and Hunter's Mark are designed to mirror each other. Its very likely they're thinking about Rangers as well as Warlocks here when they're messing with this spell, so yes, its a good possibility the new Hex is designed with half-casters in mind. Not Pact Magic casters.

The math he used was based on percentage chance to hit. I think he did 60 & 50 percent in that video iirc. Those are in line with what 5e was pretty much designed for though & so far I don't think wotc has made any clear (or vague) indications that they intend to adjust that significantly. They don't seem to have given details on how monsters will be adjusted either. Why would you assume those percentage assumptions are going to be meaningfully off?

 

[Charlaquin]

So... really quick thought. One thing about 1dnd that has been annoying me is all the complaints about nerfs. "Martials have been nerfed and not compensated for loss of SS/GWM!" "Rogue damage has been nerfed!" "Cleric staples have been nerfed!" "Paladin smite novas have been nerfed!" And now... "Hex has been nerfed!"

What if... everyone's damage has been nerfed? It really is beginning to look that way to me. Wouldn't that mean its all equalling out in the end, then?

SS/GWM was nerfed because it was too good and made all other options bad. Same with the two-SneakAttacks on Rogue. Maybe they're nerfing Hex because it was too much? Certainly, the old form contributed to the Blade Pact issue.

We haven't really seen a ton of damage spells for full casters. Mostly on the sorcerer with their new signature magics. But it is possible that we're going to see damage nerfed across the board and rebalanced. At least I like to think so.

The problem with this logic is that hex wasn’t by any means overpowered. Frankly, it was kinda bad from a pure charop perspective, it was just the least bad 1st level spell warlocks had access to.

 

[Mephista]

Why would you assume those percentage assumptions are going to be meaningfully off?

Personal experience. Monsters at any given CR usually have a 3-4 AC range. Couple that with individual PC builds differences, which may or may not include +X weaponry and/or belts of giant strength. Cleave becomes more valuable and Graze far less valuable as your to-hit rises; against solo monsters, Cleave is useless and Graze is more useful. This isn't necessarily a problem with Fighter 13, who can combine the two, but for the majority of games at level 1-10 or have a Barbarian instead, that's not a consideration.

As an extreme example, Imagine a dwarf using the Hammer of Thunderbolts, a classic Thor imitation. That's a +1 weapon and +10 strength bonus, lets presume a +4 proficency bonus. That's +15 to hit, potentially with advantage if a barbarian; that's enough to hit almost everything consistently. Neither Topple nor Graze will be boosting the barbarian's damage, as advantage and not missing are already things. Cleave would be going off like mad... in the event that you had two monsters next to each other. Which isn't a given, since the need to spread out with spellcasters around is a known quantity, and solo bosses are a thing. Cleave's usefulness is entirely DM / campaign dependent.

That's a major outlier, but it hopefully illustrates my point.

The problem with this logic is that hex wasn’t by any means overpowered. Frankly, it was kinda bad from a pure charop perspective, it was just the least bad 1st level spell warlocks had access to.

You're assuming that those other options won't be brought down. In fact, they kind of already have with the change from Pact to Half casting, which now requires a mindshift. CharOp is now different for the warlock.

 

[Remathilis]

So... really quick thought. One thing about 1dnd that has been annoying me is all the complaints about nerfs. "Martials have been nerfed and not compensated for loss of SS/GWM!" "Rogue damage has been nerfed!" "Cleric staples have been nerfed!" "Paladin smite novas have been nerfed!" And now... "Hex has been nerfed!"

What if... everyone's damage has been nerfed? It really is beginning to look that way to me. Wouldn't that mean its all equalling out in the end, then?

To be honest, I think this was always the plan.

Nearly all the major power changes have been to sky blue features. Guidance. Spiritual Weapon. Find Familiar. SS/GWM. Wild Shape/Moon druid. As much as they are bringing dud features up, they are clamping down on "always takes". Which is always a feelsbadman to people who rely on them..

 

[Aldarc]

To be honest, I think this was always the plan.

Nearly all the major power changes have been to sky blue features. Guidance. Spiritual Weapon. Find Familiar. SS/GWM. Wild Shape/Moon druid. As much as they are bringing dud features up, they are clamping down on "always takes". Which is always a feelsbadman to people who rely on them..

I can't recall. Did they clamp down on Fireball as an "always take"?

 

[Remathilis]

I can't recall. Did they clamp down on Fireball as an "always take"?

I imagine there is going to be a magic packet down the road. We've only seen a handful of spells and aside from the new class feature spells, none with the mage packet. (A problem with cramming them in with fighters and weapons).

I would not be surprised if fireball is adjusted, but I will not be shocked if it isn't.