D&D (2024) Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
"There would be no trees, no oceans, no humans, no anything resembling reality"
Demonstrating for the fourth time now that you didn't understand my argument in the original post OR the context of it. Taking that sentence out of context repeatedly isn't helping your position.
Sure I can, because its again a question of consistency. You and others have not actually justified why rests above all these other components of survival is vital to the game when an alternative system, that allows for better survival mechanics as an option, can be achieved.
There is no consistency and never has been. We don't track going to the bathroom and no edition ever has. By the logic of consistency(not slippery slope) that would mean that we shouldn't track anything, which is of course absurd. We can therefore track one thing and not another without it being a general issue. On a personal scale, tracking or not tracking something could be a personal problem.
Do we actually need to relitigate nearly a decade of discourse on rests in 5e or can we skip the rigmarole?
You mean all the opinions(not facts) surrounding things like getting healed fully around an overnight rest?
So your problem is that you consider these issues entirely separate rather than mutually entangled systems that are entirely dysfunctional?
Why would game balance issues surrounding a ridiculous number of encounters per adventuring day, which by the way would still be present if the game went to potions only, be a resting issue?
If I had come here and said that I wouldn't be writing my own game precisely because 5e and DND in general has stopped working for me and my group.

Important to note that its precisely because Im up to my eyeballs in learning game design that I'm confident in my idea about what would be better for DND.
Game design is also not an objective thing. What a designer believes is great design will be great for some people and horrible for others. I think it's great that you are designing. We need more people out there doing that. However, huge changes to D&D like removing rest mechanics won't ever fly. The feel of the game is too important to the players and therefore the D&D designers.

I'm am sincerely curious(and not to rip it apart) to see what sort of optional rule system for potions instead of resting you can come up with. As I said before I'm not at all against it showing up in the DMG as an optional rule to resting.
Having conviction in what I think is not an argument against that idea. To suggest that is just ad hominem. If you don't like how I presented the idea, stop engaging the topic. Simple. To come in and not only ignore the arguments presented time and time again BUT also keep arguing based on ad hominem is just rediculous.
Wow! Please stop with the fallacies. You aren't good at them.

I wasn't attacking you there, but merely suggesting that a softer approach is more likely to get positive responses. Coming at the boards hard as if your personal opinion were fact just causes people to butt heads with you, rather than engaging in positive conversation.
 
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Im going to opt to just ignore the stuff I no longer care to talk about.

I'm am sincerely curious(and not to rip it apart) to see what sort of optional rule system for potions instead of resting you can come up with

Posts 71 and 75 cover my idea. In short (or rather, long form as it turned out), resources are consolidated into one of two universal resources, which are the things that get restored by potions.

Abilities, spells, etc all have a cost of some amount of these universal resources, and some might have their own internal resource as an alternative (ie, daily powers).

This in turn would be coupled with a robust crafting and gathering system that would be the primary source of potions, but would also support all the other fun things players might want to craft.

I don't know if my idea for crafting is original to me or not (as I haven't quite found anything like it thus far), but the idea is something I called 7Dice. You roll 7 standard RPG dice and from this you get 6 different values. Each rolled value corresponds to some component or step in a crafting process, and the values determine the final properties of the item. These values can then be modified using skill and energy based modifiers (instead of attribute mods I consolidated them into the 3 energies, being Composure, Mana, and Stamina), and can benefit from certain class features, which allow you to customize them. Once you set up the item in this way, the final crafting budget is added up and it determines the DC you roll against to confirm the item, and degrees of success determine what you finally get; failing doesn't mean you get nothing, but succeeding really well does come with benefits, giving incentive to level up the relevant skills and, by extension, other skills to get your modifiers up.

Gathering meanwhile hooks primarily into a better codified travel activity system, which means even if a player doesn't want to go on direct quests to seek out components, they can still benefit passively as they and their party go off to do other things. Gathering corresponds to different skills, and the idea is that miniature skill challenges (with varied constructions based on 7Dice, see below) would be used to resolve the specific travel activity.

So say you're wanting to gather some metal to Smith with. You'd take the Prospecting travel activity, and the resultant skill challenge for Mining would determine what you get; using 7Dice as a basis, you'd have a specific set of dice you'd roll starting with a 2d10 skill check, which is what gives you your base prospecting chance to find some mineable ores. From there, you work your way down, rolling 1d8, 1d6, and 1d4. Each step represents the process of ore extraction, and spending your modifiers to get better rolls gets exponentially more expensive as you move down the line. The basic strategy, in essence, is to try not to spend your modifiers at all until you confirm your 1d4, which if you had at least some moderate successful values on your other rolls, means you can spend to get as much ore as you can. But, if you can roll high across the board and spread your mod equally across all the dice, then you can better ores and more of them simultaneously; the benefits of rolling high but also being very skilled.

Overall the idea behind 7Dice is that its meant to be quick to adjudicate even at the table. Much of the think-work can happen simultaneously with other goings on at the table, and for both gathering and crafting the idea is that you'd have planned ahead of time what you were going for, which would also speed things up. Potions meanwhile, as well as virtually everything else you could think to craft, would all follow this same core mechanic, making it relatively easy for players to swap between different crafting and gathering types, with the variety and interest coming from the different effects different components add to the items.

I haven't actually sat down and hammered out how Im specifically going to do potions (Im only just getting into my mages, and they're the ones that will have more of the relevant class features), but theres enough meat there to make some very interesting options for players to mess with, and as always there will be plentiful alternatives. Potions will be lootable and buyable, but these ones will mostly only be comparable to the ones a player could make at 0 Herbalism skill; player crafted items would more or less always be better, but the game wouldn't need them to function at a basic level. (Though it would be difficult to still be relying on them by level 30; at that point you could afford to employ an alchemist, so theres little reason not to eventually have the good stuff, even if you don't want to bother with doing the crafting yourself)

But anyway, this system overall results in a more functional system for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is that it hands resource management entirely over to the players. There is no arguing over when to get powers back. You either have the potions or you don't, and its on the player to be adequately prepared.

This in turn makes the GMs life easier, as you can design according to what they're prepped for, or can just design fixed encounters, and they either come prepares or they don't. No need to go out of ones way to balance the game, because it already will be by virtue of how the new resource system works.

Which, is the next big thing this would do. As player resources are no longer tied to adventure design, balance can be achieved per encounter.

More still has to be done on the intra-party balance when it comes to 5e, and for that matter in monster design, but insofar as resource management goes, these systems would provide simplification and more depth simultaneously and where it ought to be. GMs do not need to have complex considerations just to make the game functional, and players by and large tend to appreciate robust mechanics that are flexible enough to be engaged with by choice.

Hooking gathering into travel activities also helps to make the process of travelling into something that actually has a point to work through rather than skipping it outright, and I don't think we need to argue over whether or not exploration needs help, and when combined with, by my experience much more fun and interactive travel mechanics (based on the Tension pool), you get a lot of mileage.
 

Irlo

Hero
Nope. He said that removing rests, if we take the realism question as a reason, means we can't have anything else thats "real".

That is the definition of a slippery slope. Doing one thing must automatically lead to all these other things because reasons.
Nope, that's not what he said.
You not being affected by the problem doesn't make it not a problem.
I agree. As I said:
Resource recovery on short and long rests works all right for me and others I've played with.
A solution that works for you doesn't make it a solution that works for me.
Its also a matter of consistency. Those things already exist in the game. Should we remove health potions, not just a classic part of countless RPGs over the decades but in 5e specifically one of the few things wortb buying?

Obviously the answer is no, so then the question becomes where the "taste" comes in that leads t elaborating on and expanding those already existing game components becomes "silly".

I don't think the answer is as obviously no as you think it is. Healing potions in D&D are marginally silly (IMO), and expanding on those existing game components also expands the silliness.

Should we remove them from the D&D rules? No necessarily, because they're well established and some people like them. Should I remove them from D&D at my table? Probably, yes.
 

mamba

Legend
You not being affected by the problem doesn't make it not a problem.
you having a problem does not mean we have one or it indeed is one. See how that works?

Making survival fully optional means theres design space to do it much better; when it also has to support the gamist side of the game then the design space is constricted.
you can always make it better regardless, and maybe keep that part optional

By divorcing survival from the core game, and building up the core as a replacement, then we can have it both ways. Those that want survival can integrate mechanics that have room to be more robust and mechanically interesting, and everyone in turn gets a base game thats better balanced, better functioning, and frankly more fun, which is the entire point.

Ive made this point more than once and people continue to ignore it.
we do not ignore it, we do not accept it. I do not see this working, potions simply eliminate all of it.

You tell me you have potions that take care of you having to rest and healing, but no potions that take care of other survival stuff? Why draw an arbitrary line there?

Between potions and spells (tiny hut) you eliminate survival entirely
 
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You tell me you have potions that take care of you having to rest and healing, but no potions that take care of other survival stuff? Why draw an arbitrary line there?

Did I actually say this or are you just asserting assumptions as fact?

Nevermind that the potion of thirst is called a jug of water or the potion of hunger called a soup. (And cooking is actually something I intend to support and want supported)

And meanwhile, if we want to introduce potions that buff certain things, like say, a Potion of Foraging or a Potion of Navigation that, narratively, sharpen your senses and insights and, mechanically, provide a boost to the relevant rolls and modifiers, then yeah, we can absolutely do that.

Thats free easy content right there, and itd be relatively trivial to balance the rarity of the components with the benefits of the potion, particularly if we're assuming crafting mechanics like 7Dice that would keep most crafted items relatively lower level than their players.

Between potions and spells (tiny hut) you eliminate survival entirely

Spells like tiny hut shouldn't exist. Spells whose only practical purpose is skipping mechanics wholesale are bad game design.
 

S'mon

Legend
Lower the number of abilities and have them recover with a 5-minute short rest. Keeps rests. Players get to use all their toys. And the designers can actually balance the game. So many problems solved.

4e D&D Gamma World did that. Personally I didn't like the HP bar resetting to full after every fight, although that's how most video games do it.

My own approach is to allow short rests as per 5e RAW but no more than 3 per day, and encounter checks during SR - best to find a secluded spot for your SR.
I use 7 day long rests, and a session is normally one expedition/one day in the dungeon. At the end of the typical session the PCs return to base, and long rest up over the following week. I use 1:1 time as per eg the 1e DMG so if sessions are weekly, you just have time to LR before your next expedition.

This all works great IME.
 

S'mon

Legend
Spells like tiny hut shouldn't exist. Spells whose only practical purpose is skipping mechanics wholesale are bad game design.

Tiny Hut is awful game design because (a) the Hut is so powerful, as written it's world/setting breaking, and (b) it's a ritual, so no resource cost. As written, if it were a level 6 non-ritual spell then it would fit in ok with the 5e power gradient. I think it's ok to have spells that skip mechanics wholesale IF they have an appropriate resource cost.
 


bushmills

Villager
A rest can be very great in roleplaying, of course only with the right game master and players who are into it. But that doesn't happen often, because the hunt for treasure or the like doesn't allow for the quieter moments of roleplaying.
 

Bagpuss

Legend
Sure I can, because its again a question of consistency. You and others have not actually justified why rests above all these other components of survival is vital to the game when an alternative system, that allows for better survival mechanics as an option, can be achieved.

I'm not sure you've made the point that it is a better survival mechanic.

I mean the rest system, might have some flaws for some folks, but it is at least written out as rules, that can be understood, and doesn't take a whole lot of extra book keeping. It has verisimilitude built in because people understand resting to get their breath back, and feeling better afterwards, they understand taking time out to eat, tend wounds, etc.

I've yet to see how your proposal will work mechanically, within the existing D&D rules.

Do we actually need to relitigate nearly a decade of discourse on rests in 5e or can we skip the rigmarole?

Maybe just provide some bullet points on what you think are the main issues with the current rest system?

Is it the "Mother may I?" aspect that is your main contention, or how it can be exploited by players?

Oh and thanks for removing the block, I am generally interested in what you are proposing assuming it is an improvement on what we have already, but without clarity I can't currently see why it would be better, what it is trying to fix.

Edit: Had a chance to read post #232 - Ah okay so this isn't for D&D but a whole new game, based on this 7 Dice system? You are planning a game where gathering and crafting are much more integral and important for the game?
 
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