not at any table I've been on. We do three sets and take the best another friend will let you toss your stats and roll again. once or twice I've bumped someone's stat s up after creation because I thought they were just too low, or just make sure they find the right magic item to level the field some.
D&D General here's how to stop jealousy in between lucky players and unlucky ones
- Thread starter le Redoutable
- Start date
AmandaBarbarian
Explorer
I have gotten so used to hoping for 4d6 drop lowest and hoping its not 3d6 that it never even occurred to me to do that?
Laurefindel
Legend
Because rolling is fun? And because inequity is not fun? OP’s solution sounds like a win to me.
For what it’s worth, that’s what our group has been doing for years. Roll one series 4d6K3 each. These are the stats arrays available for this campaign, including villains with PC classes.
Laurefindel
Legend
I think so. Maybe not so much differences as much as gross unbalance. That’s the whole point of stat arrays and point-buy; reduce the gap of difference between characters due to (un)luck
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
Kind of depends on what you mean by common.
This is one of those "there are multiple camps within D&D, and they bitterly disagree about how things should be done" things.
As I mentioned above, some folks see character statistics in, for lack of a better term, a holistic, personality-driving, inspirational role. These folks tend to lean old school (but not always) and also usually prefer lower stats that have small but still moderate impact on character performance. To them, variance between characters is extremely important because that variance literally is what makes one character different from another, despite their common claims of not wanting players to think in terms of what is on their character sheet. For these folks, balance is usually either not an issue in the first place, or if it is an issue, it's either better addressed elsewhere or best managed with deft methods.
The other main camp (there could be more, but this seems to be one of those two-camp issues) sees statistics in a pragmatic, gameplay-supporting, functional role. Such players tend to be new-school but are by no means exclusively so. A character can have high Wisdom and yet be oblivious. A character can have low Wisdom but still make reasonable decisions, because statistics do not hard determine personality or behavior, just success chances. To them, major inter-character variance is the enemy, because it rewards and punishes players permanently across their career for sheer, dumb luck. It creates what they see as inherent disparity of opportunity, not just disparity in focus. Balance is important, because it means player choice is emphasized: if you fail, it is not because you were doomed to fail, but because you had a bad plan or you miscalculated.
Both positions have their merits, but I'm definitely in the latter camp. I get that there is value in surprise and that a feeling of naturalness, of "this is a person I'm discovering, not a puppet I'm manufacturing" can be very helpful to connect with a character and find them compelling. But I find the cost exceeds the prize in most games. Players get anxious about being a "burden" or "not pulling their weight" with low stats, and fear being a showboat or robbing other players of their fun with high stats. Especially if these disparities stack with others (like full caster vs martial, optimized vs casual, planned vs evolved), it's all too easy for the game to become the Great Stat Char Show, starring Great Stat Guy. It's easy to say "oh well just don't be so attached to your single character," but that's just not how most players play nowadays. Telling people to just enjoy things the way you do is neither helpful nor persuasive.
So, after that wall of text, TL;DR:
A big chunk of the player base says NO, absolutely DO NOT avoid variance, if you do that, you ruin everything.
Another big chunk of the player base says YES, absolutely DO avoid variance, if you don't do that, you ruin everything.
Both sides make some good points, but I find the second far and away more compelling. Such deep variance from dumb luck leads to upset players and worse play.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
All of those things you described are literally methods to partially reduce variance by ensuring everyone has a good chance of throwing out bad stat arrays and keeping good ones.
Exactly my point. People want the fun of rolling, but none of the negative side effects of rolling. That is the problem. To the best of my knowledge, there is no way to actually do that. To get the fun of rolling you must have the negative parts. The more you reduce the negatives, the more you have pulled away from the stuff that makes rolling fun. One can rationalize, one can pick out specific bits and say "well this one bit of Theseus' ship is what makes it his," etc., but ultimately what you're doing is accepting a compromise of N% randomness and (100-N)% control.
Perhaps. It's going to lead to fairly powerful characters though. With N players, that's effectively equivalent (not equal, but fairly similar) to letting every player roll N sets of stats and then keep the best set. At that point, why not just let players pick what stats they want, as long as their picks aren't grossly overpowered? It's not like you're putting a meaningful limit to begin with. Multiple 15+ stats are extremely likely, before racial bonuses.
Like, consider the following sample rolls. Just used Anydice, simple "highest 3 of 4d6," had it generate sets of 30 rolls and then just split those into five arrays in the order they were rolled.
16, 13, 12, 14, 18, 14
10, 10, 11, 9, 11, 13
7, 12, 15, 12, 16, 13
8, 8, 12, 10, 11, 14
15, 7, 14, 13, 11, 15
16, 18, 14, 9, 14, 7
15, 11, 16, 14, 18, 10
14, 10, 17, 14, 15, 15
12, 11, 6, 14, 11, 11
14, 8, 8, 13, 11, 11
13, 11, 11, 9, 15, 11
9, 16, 11, 7, 9, 15
13, 5, 13, 15, 12, 13
17, 12, 14, 10, 13, 9
13, 18, 15, 16, 10, 10
10, 12, 14, 16, 12, 10
16, 16, 9, 13, 14, 11
15, 13, 16, 7, 10, 14
14, 13, 15, 8, 7, 14
14, 13, 7, 14, 10, 15
13, 10, 14, 12, 9, 17
13, 14, 12, 13, 12, 10
12, 14, 7, 14, 10, 15
14, 14, 7, 12, 13, 10
14, 14, 8, 11, 14, 13
10, 10, 11, 9, 11, 13
7, 12, 15, 12, 16, 13
8, 8, 12, 10, 11, 14
15, 7, 14, 13, 11, 15
16, 18, 14, 9, 14, 7
15, 11, 16, 14, 18, 10
14, 10, 17, 14, 15, 15
12, 11, 6, 14, 11, 11
14, 8, 8, 13, 11, 11
13, 11, 11, 9, 15, 11
9, 16, 11, 7, 9, 15
13, 5, 13, 15, 12, 13
17, 12, 14, 10, 13, 9
13, 18, 15, 16, 10, 10
10, 12, 14, 16, 12, 10
16, 16, 9, 13, 14, 11
15, 13, 16, 7, 10, 14
14, 13, 15, 8, 7, 14
14, 13, 7, 14, 10, 15
13, 10, 14, 12, 9, 17
13, 14, 12, 13, 12, 10
12, 14, 7, 14, 10, 15
14, 14, 7, 12, 13, 10
14, 14, 8, 11, 14, 13
For all but the fifth set, every set has at least one array with two stats 15+, and often more than one with even better than that (either more 15+ stats or at least two 16+), while again in all but the last two sets there are both awesome and terrible arrays here (first and second have some especially bad ones, but that 5 in an otherwise okay-ish array in the third set gets dishonorable mention.) Giving everyone the best array of the set pretty much means "pick two stats and 15-16, and two more at 13-14. Your call if you want any penalties." If you desire randomness, simply roll for where your stats will go, rather than how high they will be.
Bacon Bits
Legend
Not to the degree I see online.
When we start a new edition, we will often use point buy or standard arrays. Once we are familiar and comfortable with it, we tend to try rolling. We haven't had any problems, except with 4e where one player having something like 20, 18, 16, 14, 10, 9 after adjustment was unbalanced to the point that it disrupted the game.
jasper
Rotten DM
everyone rolls 4d6 drops the lowest. Then you grid it. Dm rolls to get a full 6 by 6 grid.
8,9,10,11,12,13
13,14,15,16,1,7
Then the players TALK TO EACH OTHER about their builds. Then one person goes first and chooses a line. Up down. left right. Diagonal. Once a stat is used you can't use it twice.
8,9,10,11,12,13
13,14,15,16,1,7
Then the players TALK TO EACH OTHER about their builds. Then one person goes first and chooses a line. Up down. left right. Diagonal. Once a stat is used you can't use it twice.
jasper
Rotten DM
WRONG SPREAD THE JOY. EVERYONE USES THE MOST UNLUCKY ROLLS. that is real roll playing!I'm speaking about players rolling stats;
to end the conflict in between lucky players who roll say a 8,12,14,16,17,17 and another one who rolls a 7,9,10,12,12,13,
just use the highest ( or the one that unlucky player wants from his other comrades ) , so the unlucky player will have the same 8,12,14,15,17,17 stats
Laurefindel
Legend
Rolling stat arrays is a way to introduce elements of variance between games without forcing variance between players. I take that you don't like it, but I do. It's not different from varying between 27, 30, or 32 point-buy. Obviously, the more players you have, the more likely a high array will turn out. But that high array would turn out anyway for one player, and the more players you have, the more likely you end with a strong variance between the highest and weakest series. I'm much happier with an equally strong party than with one strong and one weak character in an average party. I find it easier to DM at any case
In the end, it's just another tool in the shed. Your group finds point-buy fair-but-dull? Your group finds individual rolling exciting-but-unfair? Then rolling for stat arrays is the way to go. If your group is fine with individual rolls or point-buy, then don't use rolled stat arrays. That should go without saying...
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