D&D (2024) Monks Are Not Tanks And Shouldn’t Be

[Asisreo]

Let's say monks are supposed to be tanks. Like, their role is literally to sit in melee combat and take the big hits.

What exactly does a d10 hitdice accomplish?

Because, remember, that only increases the average HP by 1 per level.

So at level 3, you're only getting 3 more HP. It might be the difference between falling in combat on occasion but you're not somehow significantly tankier and can now enter melee and sit there safely where you couldn't with a d8.

And even level 20, 20 extra HP isn't really all that tanky. I mean, a good portion of enemies can deal that in a single strike at that level.

So if you want a tankier monk, for whatever reason, they'll need more than just +1HP per level.

 

[codo]

You will need to go back much further than d&d. The times of Shakespeare and probably Greek plays were when the root of that term started with playwright's and director's girlfriend/wife/mistress. You have a huge hill to climb there .

Yes a monk with a few levels who digs in to push for a short rest every fight or three so they can spam flurry stunning strike and so on as a cantrip is absolutely just as broken as the warlock and action surge spamming fighter digging in beside the monk

Ah yes, the Elizabethan English and the ancient Greeks were massively condescending and misogynistic towards women, so we have no choice but to be as well. There is no possible way to hold ourselves to a higher standard than people in the past.

Both the ancient Greeks and the Elizabethans practiced slavery, so we should as well, right?

 

[mellored]

so, i ask this as someone who's never really looked at playing monks, what causes them to not measure up to par? them being M.A.D. and not enough ki points to be going around with i think are the common criticisms i hear about them?
edit: and judging by this thread's premise that they're not 'tanky' enough.

Yes, yes, and not really.

Given they are a short rest class, and not every group gets regular short rests, really hurts their ki. And we already had someone who gave them infinite ki, and said it was too powerful. So there is happy medium somewhere.

Being MAD means they can't get high AC and HP (dex/wis/con). Which is what hurts their "tanking".

Which give me an idea... just drop Con.

Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your wisdom modifier
Hit Points per Level after 1st: 1d8 (or 5) + your wisdom modifier

 

[tetrasodium]

Ah yes, the Elizabethan English and the ancient Greeks were massively condescending and misogynistic towards women, so we have no choice but to be as well. There is no possible way to hold ourselves to a higher standard than people in the past.

Both the ancient Greeks and the Elizabethans practiced slavery, so we should as well, right?

I literally linked to the TV tropes page describing the trope in my initial post and that link was actually quoted.

Dungeonmaster's Girlfriend - TV Tropes

"Dungeonmaster's Girlfriend" is a term used in Tabletop RPG circles for a player — often literally the DM's significant other, sometimes a younger family member — who is getting special treatment from the Game Master due to an out-of- …

tvtropes.org

 

[Chaosmancer]

Deflect Missiles (Defense against ranged attacks)
Evasion (Defense against the most common AOEs)
Stillness of Mind (Defense against charmed and frightened)
Purity of Body (Immune to poison and disease)
Slow Fall (Defense against being knocked off a cliff to your death)
Diamond Soul (Defense against 4 more saves)
Empty Body (Invisibility, Defense against damage)

These allow monks to get at ranged attackers who are not sitting in an empty parking lot with a target painted on them.

With Sharpshooter a ranged character can get to ranged attackers hiding behind a a window. And many of these defenses... well.

Deflect Missiles is good, as long as the ranged attack is a weapon attack.

Evasion is something that Rangers can get, and it is only a defense if targeted with the AOE. You may also be able to avoid it by being in melee with the enemies allies.

Stillness of mind has a fundamental flaw, in that the worse versions of fear and charm will not allow you to take your action to counter them. It is also a bit odd to call this a defense, because it is a way to cancel the effect on your turn, not prevent it from affecting you.

Purity of Body was removed.

Empty Body no longer grants invisibility, though it does provide the elemental resistances. It also costs a good percentage of Ki.

Slow Fall is not a defense. Or if it is, it is so minor it isn't worth discussion.

Diamond Soul is very good, but has two flaws.


But, let's rearrange these for a second. What are the Monk's defenses against ranged attackers?

Deflect Missiles.

What are a Monks defenses against spellcasters?

Evasion
Stillness of Mind
Diamond Soul
Empty Body

Okay, so Monks are great anti-spellcaster PCs from level 1, right? Well.... no...

Evasion is level 7
Stillness of Mind is level 10
Diamond Soul is level 14
Empty Body is level 18

If we assume the game ends around level 9.... then the ONLY thing making monks particularly good against casters is Evasion, maybe you might get stillness of mind, but you will almost never get Diamond Soul or Empty body. And I don't know any fighter who would dismiss getting Evasion. And Rangers can get evasion, some of them can even get counterspell (monster hunter)

And the monks lack AC and HP, to survive being attacked by weapon attacks that aren't ranged. This conception of the monk running across the battlefield to do lone battle with a mage or archer really doesn't happen, practically, and there are a lot of ways that monks CAN'T do that. For example, what if the caster or archer... is ALSO skilled in melee? It isn't like that never happens. Erinyes for example have a devastating bow attack, but can ALSO fight incredibly well in melee.

So a low to mid level monk... doesn't have much of anything defensively.

Whether these seven defense abilities are sufficient for how people want to play monks in 5E and how DMs are running things in 5E, I can't say, but they absolutely have a toolkit that is intended to be sufficient for specific playstyles established rather bluntly in their original showing per Snarf's thread on their history: https://www.enworld.org/threads/mon...uestionable-future-of-an-iconic-class.698616/

If this is supposed to be the monk's playstyle, why can't they access it til late game?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Let's say monks are supposed to be tanks. Like, their role is literally to sit in melee combat and take the big hits.

What exactly does a d10 hitdice accomplish?

Because, remember, that only increases the average HP by 1 per level.

So at level 3, you're only getting 3 more HP. It might be the difference between falling in combat on occasion but you're not somehow significantly tankier and can now enter melee and sit there safely where you couldn't with a d8.

And even level 20, 20 extra HP isn't really all that tanky. I mean, a good portion of enemies can deal that in a single strike at that level.

So if you want a tankier monk, for whatever reason, they'll need more than just +1HP per level.

Well, yes and no.

I'm fine with the monk being more mobile and only taking the occasional hit, but you would be surprised how much the difference can be.

Currently, a level 1 monk is likely sitting at 9 hp. If they are attacked by goblins, on average, they hit zero after being hit twice. With a d10 HD, they would have 11 hp, and they would need to be hit three times to drop. It gives them just that little bit extra.

Now, sure, by 5th level it is (assuming averages) 33 hp vs 39, Which is only 6 hp, But again, if they are fighting a bunch of orcs that is the difference between dropping in 4 attacks and dropping in 5 attacks. Essentially, going from d8 to d10 is literally "survive one more hit" which is about all I really want for the monk, unless we find a way to jump their AC by... a significant amount.

 

[Staffan]

I don't follow. If we want to have barbarians as the unarmored class, the fact that they AREN'T can't be fixed with a Subclass, because then they would be the unarmored subclass, not the class.

I don't mean that every barbarian should be an unarmored tank. I mean that it's probably a closer starting point than the monk is. I could see a subclass where the first ability is something like:
Living Arsenal: When not wielding a shield, your unarmored defense gives you AC (some formula that works out to the right number). In addition, your unarmed strike deals 1d8 damage and counts as a magic weapon.

 

[codo]

I literally linked to the TV tropes page describing the trope in my initial post and that link was actually quoted.

Dungeonmaster's Girlfriend - TV Tropes

"Dungeonmaster's Girlfriend" is a term used in Tabletop RPG circles for a player — often literally the DM's significant other, sometimes a younger family member — who is getting special treatment from the Game Master due to an out-of- …

tvtropes.org

I understand it is a trope. It is a really misogynistic trope. It doesn't make it better to use because "everyone uses it". I'm sorry, but "its just a trope" is an excuse for saying misogynistic thing.

You could have easily just referred to DM favoritism with out using a hateful trope, that implies girls don't like D&D and they only play for deceitful and manipulative reasons.

 

[Incenjucar]

If this is supposed to be the monk's playstyle, why can't they access it til late game?

Bad design.

Though typically classes get better at their playstyle over time. Wizards warping reality at 1st level hardly compares to 20th level.

You can still see what the intention is though.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Bad design.

Though typically classes get better at their playstyle over time. Wizards warping reality at 1st level hardly compares to 20th level.

You can still see what the intention is though.

Maybe, but let me ask you this. What fighter would say that Evasion, proficiency in all saves, the ability to turn off charm and fear effects, immunity to poison, and resistance to all damage wouldn't make them a better frontliner?

The effect SEEMS clear in making the Monk a mage slayer, because you are assuming they are a mage slayer. But immunity to charm and fear was given to the Barbarian, and helps them stay on the frontline. Resistance to damage is a barbarian ability that lets them stay on the front line. Proficiency in all saves is just excellent for anyone, because many melee enemies can cause con saves, wis saves, even int saves.

So if we gave all of these abilties to a barbarian and a fighter, would that make them mobile mage slayers... or just more formidable front-liners against ALL foes?