D&D General Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition

[bloodtide]

I think we all know bow hunting is a real thing. But it was more of a hobby sport even in rural areas. Most people hunted with guns even "way" back in the 70s. Especially if they cared more about the meat than the sport.

And sure, most people I know in rural Minnesota hunted, fished, and had gardens. They still went grocery shopping.

I was not trying to imply some sort of Edge living. We would make a weekly grocery trip....but not for anything we could grow, gather, hunt or fish for ourselves. We grew tomatoes, but had to buy bananas, for example.

Wait, what!? We certainly had soap in the 70s in rural Minnesota.
Are you talking about the 1870s? Never had to make a candle in my life.

Well, it does depend on your location, your family, and lots of individualism. Sure, even in the 70's some families were good consumers and bought everything at the store. Though in the 70's and well into the 80's a lot of families and people made, crafted, crew, and got what they could. Defiantly most of my grandparents generation did, and my parents did about half. It was big in the country and rural areas to make a lot of your own stuff...if you had some land it just made sense to grow your own food. Though even in the urban and suburban areas it was somewhat common to have gardens and make your own bread, for example.

And a LOT of people from my generation, and after, did grow up as and to be good mass market consumers buying processed non-food and disposable items. And when you get into the 90's it was a LOT of people. Though a lot of country rural life did not change too much. And now, in 2023, there really is an amazing snap back. As stores close and inflation drives prices high....a LOT of people are seeing the huge savings in doing things for yourself. And that is on top of the "preper" culture where people want to be ready for the worst.

Is it that they really believe it is easy or that they are playing a fantasy game and assume a party of adventurers would have survival skills and were not that interested in having to roll a skill check every long rest. I mean, I hear what your are saying, I have experienced people who really don't have any outdoors experience underestimating how challenging some activities can be, but just as often I have people who overestimate how difficult some things are.

I myself am not happy with the idea the characters "just do whatever" so the game can be endless combat. I get that game play like that is fun for some people.

That's why I asked if you grew up among the Amish or something. In the 70s and 80s, how many people in the United States, Great Britian, or any other place where electricity was cheap and reliable do you think made their own soap or candles instead of buying them at the store? Where did you grow up that it was common for children to have experience making soap and candles beacuse they couldn't buy mass market goods at the store?

Well...electricity was not that way in a lot of rural areas. Sure, some places were lit up with electric light from dusk til dawn. Some places only had electricity going to the house...our garage and barn had none. We lit candles outside the house and in the barn, plus torches and fires. And we used candles inside the house too, only using electric lights if really needed. At night my mom kept a candle burning on the kitchen table for light. Though I lot of this is by choice.

Dude, the childhood you describe is...a little extreme. Like, extreme by 19th century standards, let alone late 20th century. If you think American kids at that time were regularly hunting for their own food with bow and arrow, making their own soap, navigating by the stars...well, that seems like a very unusual set of experiences.

Yes, my parents, grandparents, family members and community taught me hundreds of piratical life skills. Though, sure, even in the 80's there were kids that were taught nothing and they just watched TV all the time. At a young age I knew how to tie a lot of knots...we used rope for lots of things often. And sure other kids could not tie a knot at all.

Also, for 99.9% of the population those are mostly useless skills in 2023, just like they were in 1980. So it is unfair to judge people for not having them. They can buy soap for a dollar.

Well, with high inflation and disaster prepping many people are finding that those skills you call "useless" are quite handy to have.

This is just another way of saying that your values are better than those of others. They aren't. Values are subjective. You are justifying judging other people as inferior to yourself. You often complain about having difficulty playing D&D with younger players. It's not them. It's you. Stop judging them and feeling superior. Consider that they, too, might know things that are as valid in their lives as your experiences were in yours.

Well, natural food is far better for a person in a lot of ways: This is a fact. Fast food, Junk food and Processed foods are far worse for a person in a lot of ways. And I get you want to defend that person that person that orders fast junk food 24/7 on their SuperSizeMe app. The same way it's far better to read a book or two on a topic, then it is to watch a quick YouTube video and declare yourself and expert. But still you'd defend the YouTube watching "expert". Real life experiences are far better then fake video game experiences. But sure you will defend the person that plays a fishing simulator and "catches lots of fish" by pushing that "X" button.

I'd wonder what "things" you think they might know that are "valid". Like they have the skill of "playing video games" and I have the skill of "hunting".

 

[Sacrosanct]

My grandpa used to wash and fold up used aluminum foil to reuse. Old coffee tins would be washed out and used to store nails or what not. Very little was thrown away. My grandparents were not poor, they made a comfortable living, but grew up in the great depression. A while ago, I was cutting and tying up Amazon delivery boxes and separating them into piles because I needed to divide into two piles to be picked up in consecutive weekly trash pickups, because I had too much to fit in the recycling bin and didn't want to go through the hassle or ordering a special pickup. Couldn't help but think that my father must have been rolling in his grave.

My dad's family were dairy farmers and I've never seen them churn their own butter. Kinda too bad, because it would be a fun skill to have learned and I'm sure they knew how from when they were young. Also, they bought milk...from the same company they sold it to (Land O' Lakes). Seems kinda weird considering how frugal my grandfather was. It must have been more economical to sell the milk than to use it and then buy it from the grocers.

Ah, good point.

We as a family didn't churn much of our own better. I've done it myself, especially when I want a specialty butter (like rosemary or honey). For us? Country Crock all the way This meme was my house growing up lol

 

[Sacrosanct]

There's a Watership Down joke in here somewhere...

In my memory, it was very much like Monty Python...

 

[deganawida]

We as a family didn't churn much of our own better. I've done it myself, especially when I want a specialty butter (like rosemary or honey). For us? Country Crock all the way This meme was my house growing up lol

View attachment 290303

This made me laugh too hard. My house was a lot like that, too, as far as reused Country Crock tubs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There's a Watership Down joke in here somewhere...

I was looking for it too...

 

[Thomas Shey]

I just realized that (and I'm aware Snarf was speaking somewhat figuratively) that when looking at the title of this thread, everything that made AD&D particularly lethal was true in OD&D, and most of the classes had smaller hit dice to boot.

 

[MGibster]

Well...electricity was not that way in a lot of rural areas. Sure, some places were lit up with electric light from dusk til dawn. Some places only had electricity going to the house...our garage and barn had none. We lit candles outside the house and in the barn, plus torches and fires.

Ain't no Tennessee Valley Authority gonna git me off'n my land! I don't think it's at all weird for a barn or an unattached garage not to have electricity. My inlaws built a large storage "shed" to store their camper, tractor, and other items, and even though it's located in a municipality, the house has electricity but the shed doesn't. I don't know what this has to do with your belief that making soap and candles was common practice for kids growing up in the 70s and 80s. The Rural Electrification Act of 1936 pretty much meant most Americans didn't need candles unless a storm knocked out the power or there was a birthday party to be had. But this is a ridiculous hijack and something I shouldn't harp on, so I'm just going to let it go.

 

[Hussar]

Ain't no Tennessee Valley Authority gonna git me off'n my land! I don't think it's at all weird for a barn or an unattached garage not to have electricity. My inlaws built a large storage "shed" to store their camper, tractor, and other items, and even though it's located in a municipality, the house has electricity but the shed doesn't. I don't know what this has to do with your belief that making soap and candles was common practice for kids growing up in the 70s and 80s. The Rural Electrification Act of 1936 pretty much meant most Americans didn't need candles unless a storm knocked out the power or there was a birthday party to be had. But this is a ridiculous hijack and something I shouldn't harp on, so I'm just going to let it go.

I was going to say. My grandfather had electricity in the barn before the house had indoor plumbing. And it certainly had indoor plumbing by the 1980's. And, while it's absolutely true that bow hunting season is longer (and in my province, MUCH longer) than the regular season, most farmers I know don't have time to sit in a tree for seven or eight hours waiting for a deer to come along. And, in the 80's, most 13 year old kids most certainly weren't doing that.

This has to be one of the most bizarre claims I've ever seen on En World. And that's saying something.

One line does stand out:

At night my mom kept a candle burning on the kitchen table for light. Though I lot of this is by choice.

I'm thinking @bloodtide is mistaking this choice as a common one seen in the 80's.

 

[Lanefan]

Yes, my parents, grandparents, family members and community taught me hundreds of piratical life skills. ...

Either you had a very interesting family or this is the best typo of the day.

 

[Clint_L]

Well, natural food is far better for a person in a lot of ways: This is a fact. Fast food, Junk food and Processed foods are far worse for a person in a lot of ways. And I get you want to defend that person that person that orders fast junk food 24/7 on their SuperSizeMe app. The same way it's far better to read a book or two on a topic, then it is to watch a quick YouTube video and declare yourself and expert. But still you'd defend the YouTube watching "expert". Real life experiences are far better then fake video game experiences. But sure you will defend the person that plays a fishing simulator and "catches lots of fish" by pushing that "X" button.

I'd wonder what "things" you think they might know that are "valid". Like they have the skill of "playing video games" and I have the skill of "hunting".

Okay, I kind of thought you were pulling our legs, but maybe not.

Your statement was that, "somethings are better than others. This is a simple fact, even if it's not liked." That is very different than "natural food is far better for a person in a lot of ways." Sure, that's obvious. On the other hand, it has disadvantages, too. For many people, it's not as easily available, and it's much more expensive. It spoils quicker. In general though, yes, I agree! Eat healthy! The point is that context matters; you can't just claim "better" as an objective fact without context.

Your other examples are much more problematic. I was just putting in new stairs in my home, which I had never done before - know what I did? I watched a 5 minute Youtube video, and it taught me what I needed to get the job done. I didn't need to purchase and read books on the subject, and I don't want to be an expert on stair installation - I'll probably never do it again. You have the skill of "hunting?" Good for you. We hunted, too, when I was a kid. I haven't used those skills once since I was thirteen. Kind of a waste, really. Whereas my computer skills? Use them everyday. I'm typing right now. Seems pretty "valid."

You don't know everyone's context, so judging the validity of their knowledge based on whether it is the same as yours is totally unfair. And you are setting up bizarre counterfactuals, like the only alternative to learning how to fish is playing a fishing video game. Maybe instead of going fishing they were studying medicine. Or law. Or plumbing. Or teaching. Or cooking. Or aquaculture. Maybe they see going fishing as a giant, boring waste of time when they could be doing something more productive.

I assume you would disagree with that assessment. And you would be right, because in your context, fishing is super valuable. But respect that other contexts are just as valid as yours.