D&D 5E (2024) Playtest Packet 6: They knocked Druid out of the Park

[mamba]

I don't consider more beast in the monster manual bad use of pages.

given what else they could fill them with, I do

 

[doctorbadwolf]

All subclasses have a good use for it. So at this point it's just miss named for backwards compatible sake.

And now that it is a bonus action, you can cast call lighting, turning into an animal and run away (badger burrowing FTW). But I expect it to mostly be utility (mouse scouting).

And they all have familiar as well. Which has all sorts of good utility as well.

The worst familiar in the game, in some ways, sure. I guess at least it doesn’t cost 10 gold or whatever?

I really like all the druid changes right now. There is just that one problem left to solve. Moon druid being a wolf / spider / not mammoth at high levels.

Yeah we are just gonna disagree on that being the last problem.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

That's kind of the point of the sub-class. To make use of the MM.

To be the beast.

What if you put a wolf template in the monster manual?

Wolf: CR 1+
Str: 12+½ CR ...
AC: 12+½ CR
To-hit: 4+½ CR
Pact tactics...

Then DM and druid could both scale it as they please. And it saves space.

I've been pretty clear that I never want the druid to ever have look in the Monster Manual for their class abilities.

A new player should never have to buy the Monster Manual to play their Druid and the PH should never have a bunch of Monster Manual stat blocks reprinted in the appendix, when those pages can be used for something more important. It's a waste of pagecount.

 

[Mistwell]

My biggest issue with this Druid (and I like it very much overall) is the Moon Druid beast options. IF they give us a lot more and better higher HD beasts, it's fine or even good. But if you take this with the existing beasts, it has the same problems as always. That being higher level beasts are way too weak, and the beast wildshape options just don't scale well with level. Great at level three, and terrible at level 9 or so and thereafter.

So if they give us in the PHB a list of beasts at each of the levels where you get a new HD of beast, and they are interesting and varied and appropriate power for that level, then great.

If not, then they should just let you chose from 1 HD creatures or lower (which are varied and good for their level) and then put a Moon Druid rider on them that scales them by level.

One or the other would be fine, but neither would make the Moon Druid still wonky.

I really quite like the other two subclasses, and the base class. Minor quibbles here and there but overall a good solid class.

 

[Mistwell]

I've been pretty clear that I never want the druid to ever have look in the Monster Manual for their class abilities.

A new player should never have to buy the Monster Manual to play their Druid and the PH should never have a bunch of Monster Manual stat blocks reprinted in the appendix, when those pages can be used for something more important. It's a waste of pagecount.

I disagree on the later. Beasts in the PHB is like Spells in the PHB and Feats in the PHB. It's a selection of options for a class, not wasted pagecount at all. Each beast doesn't take up a lot of room for the PHB. It's not like you need background and history and culture and a list of strategy for how to DM each and a picture - it's just a stat block. Less space than a lot of spells.

 

[Mistwell]

Yep. Wildshape isn’t fixed until that issue is fixed.

That, and it’s bonkers to have only 1 subclass that actually uses a core class feature in the way most people would imagine it being used, only 1 subclass that really uses it well. Just…astonishingly weird decision.

For the PHB I am perfectly fine with just one that focuses on combat beast forms. I don't find it weird at all. The druid has too many focus aspects, and devoting a subclass to each for the PHB makes sense to me. Plenty of time for future expansion books with subclasses that expand on those.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I disagree on the later. Beasts in the PHB is like Spells in the PHB and Feats in the PHB. It's a selection of options for a class, not wasted pagecount at all. Each beast doesn't take up a lot of room for the PHB. It's not like you need background and history and culture and a list of strategy for how to DM each and a picture - it's just a stat block. Less space than a lot of spells.

As much as I don't like it, I know I won't win this one. They are also going to include monster stats for summoning creatures and animating the dead. They'll add basic beasts too.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

For the PHB I am perfectly fine with just one that focuses on combat beast forms. I don't find it weird at all. The druid has too many focus aspects, and devoting a subclass to each for the PHB makes sense to me. Plenty of time for future expansion books with subclasses that expand on those.

The base class should allow for a decent amount of combat utility with wildshape.

It’s much much closer with this UA, but tbh if the Druid gets no extra hp in wildshape…let them cast self spells, and touch spells, and then expand that for the Moon Druid.

Or even just give a good scaling formula for attack and damage in wildshape, and it also solves the whole “let me be a wolf at level 20 and not be useless” issue.

 

[Clint_L]

My biggest issue with this Druid (and I like it very much overall) is the Moon Druid beast options. IF they give us a lot more and better higher HD beasts, it's fine or even good. But if you take this with the existing beasts, it has the same problems as always. That being higher level beasts are way too weak, and the beast wildshape options just don't scale well with level. Great at level three, and terrible at level 9 or so and thereafter.

Exactly. But now worse, because you don't get anything like that massive potential hit point pool to let you soak a ton of damage even if you didn't contribute much offence. Current moon druids are amazing at low levels, decline quickly through middle levels, become great when they are buoyed up by elemental shapes at level 9, and slowly lose potency until they get almost infinitely durable with unlimited wild shapes at 20. This is obviously not great design, but at least they are never terrible (the problem is that they are sometimes too good).

This version of druid solves the latter problem - they are not ever going to be too good. The problem is that they go from good at levels 2-4, to absolutely terrible by higher levels. It's just a long, slow decline as you level up. And keep in mind that over 60% of druids are moon druids. So this is going to affect a lot of players.

They are also significantly more MAD than other druids, because they are supposed to be tanky, but this revised version uses their regular AC and doesn't give them nearly as many hit points as the current iteration. So they are incentivize to get their AC as high as possible, which with medium armour means a dex of 14, and also to maximize their constitution, on top of their wisdom. Though I suppose one way around this would be to play as a tortle druid, so you could just focus on wis and con.

The fantasy of the Moon Druid is of transforming into a beast and tearing into your opponent (basically, the D&D movie, if owl bears were allowed), but this version is not that, beyond low levels. Instead, this version is transforming into a beast that is increasingly a mild annoyance, at best, to your opponent. And has moonbeam.

I think they should do the following:

1. Let moon druids round up for the CR rating of their beast, not down (this is a small buff but will let them scale a little better).

2. Pick six iconic beasts and have a CR 1-7 version of each at the back of the new PHB (this won't take that much space, just extra stat blocks on top of the base description. This will ensure that the moon druid will always have some interesting options, not just "mammoth."

3. Forget moonbeam. I mean, sure, put it on their spell list and let them use while wildshaped, but that's it. Instead, use the Level 6, 10, and 14 slots to buff wildshape further, so that it stays competitive as the moon druid levels up.

Example:
Level 6: Your attacks can deal radiant damage and as a bonus action you can gain resistance to slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage until the start of your next turn. You can use this ability as many times as your proficiency bonus, resetting on a long rest.

Level 10: While wildshaped, you can add your wisdom modifier to your melee attack damage rolls.

Level 14: While wildshaped, you can add half your proficiency modifier to your melee attack rolls to hit.

Those are just spitballing - I haven't worked out any math - but the idea is to let the wildshaped form stay viable in combat as the druid levels up. Because let's face it, a mammoth (one attack, +10 to hit, 4d8+7 damage) is not exactly striking fear into anyone's heart at level 18.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I disagree on the later. Beasts in the PHB is like Spells in the PHB and Feats in the PHB. It's a selection of options for a class, not wasted pagecount at all. Each beast doesn't take up a lot of room for the PHB. It's not like you need background and history and culture and a list of strategy for how to DM each and a picture - it's just a stat block. Less space than a lot of spells.

There are statblocks that take up more room than spells too.

I just don't think it makes sense to have 40+ statblocks in the PHB.