D&D 5E At Your 5E Table, How Is It Agreed upon That the PCs Do Stuff Other than Attack?

[Pedantic]

Well, that’s why passive perception exists. But you still need a skill for resolving active attempts to search for things, and it makes sense for that and passive perception to key off the same stats. Unless we want to go back to the days of separate skills for search and spot? That seems like a poor choice to me personally.

I could be persuaded there should be a difference between the "turn over a room" and the "don't get surprised" skill but even if you wanted to keep them the same you could still run it as a defense. You just write the equivalent of the Dodge action for perception that players can take to get +X, and then maybe a longer action that takes 1 minute (or maybe 10 minutes to put it on the ritual timescale?) that gives you +2X (or whatever makes sense with the RNG).

 

[Voadam]

Well, that’s why passive perception exists. But you still need a skill for resolving active attempts to search for things, and it makes sense for that and passive perception to key off the same stats. Unless we want to go back to the days of separate skills for search and spot? That seems like a poor choice to me personally.

5e is a little ambiguous on the differences between investigation and other skills.

"Investigation. When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check."

So is a hidden trap a hidden object that you can find with investigation?

Wouldn't the wound thing be a medicine check?

Would researching knowledge be a specific knowledge skill?

But then there is a whole sidebar on finding hidden objects

FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check. Such a check can be used to find hidden details or other information and clues that you might otherwise overlook.
In most cases, you need to describe where you are looking in order for the DM to determine your chance of success. For example, a key is hidden beneath a set of folded clothes in the top drawer of a bureau. If you tell the DM that you pace around the room, looking at the walls and furniture for clues, you have no chance of finding the key, regardless of your Wisdom ( Perception) check result. You would have to specify that you were opening the drawers or searching the bureau in order to have any chance of success.

And then in the DMG under traps:

A trap's description specifies the checks and DCs needed to detect it, disable it, or both. A character actively looking for a trap can attempt a Wisdom (Perception) check against the trap's DC. You can also compare the DC to detect the trap with each character's passive Wisdom (Perception) score to determine whether anyone in the party notices the trap in passing. If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it, either permanently or long enough to move past it. You might call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check for a character to deduce what needs to be done, followed by a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage.
Any character can attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check to detect or disarm a magic trap, in addition to any other checks noted in the trap's description.

Rulings, not rules eh?

 

[Charlaquin]

I could be persuaded there should be a difference between the "turn over a room" and the "don't get surprised" skill but even if you wanted to keep them the same you could still run it as a defense. You just write the equivalent of the Dodge action for perception that players can take to get +X, and then maybe a longer action that takes 1 minute (or maybe 10 minutes to put it on the ritual timescale?) that gives you +2X (or whatever makes sense with the RNG).

I guess? That seems significantly more complex than the way it currently works for very little benefit.

 

[Charlaquin]

5e is a little ambiguous on the differences between investigation and other skills.

"Investigation. When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. You might deduce the location of a hidden object, discern from the appearance of a wound what kind of weapon dealt it, or determine the weakest point in a tunnel that could cause it to collapse. Poring through ancient scrolls in search of a hidden fragment of knowledge might also call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check."

So is a hidden trap a hidden object that you can find with investigation?

Wouldn't the wound thing be a medicine check?

Would researching knowledge be a specific knowledge skill?

But then there is a whole sidebar on finding hidden objects

FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check. Such a check can be used to find hidden details or other information and clues that you might otherwise overlook.
In most cases, you need to describe where you are looking in order for the DM to determine your chance of success. For example, a key is hidden beneath a set of folded clothes in the top drawer of a bureau. If you tell the DM that you pace around the room, looking at the walls and furniture for clues, you have no chance of finding the key, regardless of your Wisdom ( Perception) check result. You would have to specify that you were opening the drawers or searching the bureau in order to have any chance of success.

And then in the DMG under traps:

A trap's description specifies the checks and DCs needed to detect it, disable it, or both. A character actively looking for a trap can attempt a Wisdom (Perception) check against the trap's DC. You can also compare the DC to detect the trap with each character's passive Wisdom (Perception) score to determine whether anyone in the party notices the trap in passing. If the adventurers detect a trap before triggering it, they might be able to disarm it, either permanently or long enough to move past it. You might call for an Intelligence (Investigation) check for a character to deduce what needs to be done, followed by a Dexterity check using thieves' tools to perform the necessary sabotage.
Any character can attempt an Intelligence (Arcana) check to detect or disarm a magic trap, in addition to any other checks noted in the trap's description.

Rulings, not rules eh?

I think it’s pretty clear that perception is for gathering direct sensory information and investigation is for making deductions based on available information (including but not limited to that of the sensory variety). Others rule differently, but that to me seems to be what the text is suggesting. Personally, I just call for ability checks and let the players add their proficiency bonus if they think one of their proficiencies is relevant.

 

[Lanefan]

If there’s no consequence for failure, then nothing is lost by just allowing them to succeed.

If they wouldn't succeed every time in reality then why should they succeed every time in the fiction even if failure has no real consequence?

 

[Lanefan]

That's a judgment call and a matter of taste.

In an investigation scenario as a DM I would be more comfortable just providing more narratively appropriate information clues so the almond smell would probably just be part of my description of the "fresh-baked pies, smelling of apples, buttery pastry, and a touch of almonds and cloves."

This is assuming they can smell it at all. There's nothing saying they necessarily can; there's any number of reasons why someone under a window can't smell a pie on a counter in the room, the most obvious of which is that the breeze is blowing in through the window and carrying the smell the other way. Or there's a plant under the window giving off enough scent that it's all you can smell there. Hence, roll to see if you can smell it, and the better you roll the more informative it is.

The decision to gamify it as a d20 craps dice game with additional spotlight information at stake instead of a puzzle for the players to work out is a choice and matter of taste,

So would the decision to make it a straight mechanical passive test that never varies. The +4 perception character notes easy to perceive things but not moderately difficult ones.

I don't see it as either of these in this particular case; with the pie example I see it as you're rolling to see how co-operative the environment randomly happens to be right now with regards to what you're trying to do.

 

[Lanefan]

I think I recall you saying you give XP for "roleplaying". Is that right?

No. I give xp for overcoming encounters and challenges by whatever means, and a "dungeon bonus" at the end of each adventure* to batch up all the little day-to-day things (finding a good campsite, picking minor locks, covering tracks, good planning, etc.) that I can't otherwise be arsed to track all the time.

* - in the metagame this replaces xp-for-treasure to a small extent.

 

[Lanefan]

A contest is a case where failure does have a consequence. Specifically, the consequence for failure is that your opponent succeeds.

Sometimes the opponent is passive. When I fail to pick the lock on a door, by this phrasing the lock succeeds in resisting my attempt.

 

[Lanefan]

In the case of opening a chest, if you fail you can just try again

No. Round here your one roll represents your best attempt, and is binding.

If you want to try again you have to use a different approach (and here, obviously, stating approach as well as goal becomes important). Can't pick the lock? You can try removing the hinges, or Chill Metal followed by a hammer blow to the metal cladding, or just thrash the chest to pieces with an axe...or someone else can try picking it.

(unless, as I said before, time is a valuable resource, in which case the consequence for failure is wasted time). In the case of trying to get an audience with the king, failure probably prevents subsequent attempts, so the consequence for failure is one of opportunity.

This is always the case. You only get one roll.

What kind? From your description have no idea what actually happened, other than that the larger PC didn’t get carried up to their room. Or… didn’t do so right away? I guess even that is unclear.

It sounded to me like the carried PC woke up with considerably more bumps and bruises than would have been the case had the carriers been less clumsy.

 

[Lanefan]

FINDING A HIDDEN OBJECT
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check.

Stupid question: why Wisdom instead of Intelligence for searching, where Intelligence (i.e. reasoning and intellect) would seem to make more sense?