D&D General What is player agency to you?

[Oofta]

Which ones do you have in mind?

What do you have in mind?

I've played plenty of D&D games where players describe their PCs clothes, sometimes their friends and family, etc. Is this what you mean?

Do you mean the GM asking the player's questions and incorporating their answers into what the GM says next? Then concrete examples would be helpful. In Apocalypse World, this is a method (i) of elucidating player goals/aspirations for their PCs, and (ii) giving effect to PC memory and knowledge. It is not the player "making changes outside of their PC".

Dungeon World is a PbtA game that allows players to create the lore for the world on the fly. It's not for me, but I can dig up a link to some actual play podcasts if you want.

The game I listened to had a player describe what was in a tower the group was investigating, it was absolutely the player making changes outside of their PC.

 

[Oofta]

I played my 5e barbarian/fighter on Wednesday. In that session I spent inspiration, chose to enter a berserk rage, used my Lucky feat to reroll a failed poison save, spent some (but not all) of my hit dice to heal what I needed to, and used some (but not all) of my battlemaster manoeuvres to survive the encounter but also keep something back for the next.

Which of those are decisions my character made, or had any concept of making, and which are decisions that I made as a player existing outside the game world?

As a player you're having your PC is using their abilities to act upon the world around them.

It's a game. There will always be metagame stuff that creeps in that can't be 100% justified in world.

 

[dave2008]

PbtA games do this all the time, for example. Any time a player decides that something exists in the world outside of their PC they are doing this, especially if that something is helpful in the situation the PCs are in at the time, and/or has nothing to do personally with their PC.

But bloodtide is talking about D&D, not other games. I have not heard of people doing this in D&D games and blood implies it is commonplace.

 

[pemerton]

I played my 5e barbarian/fighter on Wednesday. In that session I spent inspiration, chose to enter a berserk rage, used my Lucky feat to reroll a failed poison save, spent some (but not all) of my hit dice to heal what I needed to, and used some (but not all) of my battlemaster manoeuvres to survive the encounter but also keep something back for the next.

Which of those are decisions my character made, or had any concept of making, and which are decisions that I made as a player existing outside the game world?

Part of the cleverness of D&D design around hit points, saving throws and the like is that it tends to elide a clear answer to that question!

Here's one way of looking at some of it: you could choose to narrate your character saying a prayer before you trigger your use of the Lucky feat. But the rules don't require you to, and if you choose to narrate the prayer anyway it makes no difference to the action resolution. This suggests that it is not your character making a choice. Contrast the hit dice: this does require you to declare an action for your PC, namely, resting, so there is at least that much connection between the mechanic and the in-game events - though it's still a bit wonky, as the move from PC chooses to rest to PC recovers some grit and stamina (ie heals hp) is mediated by you, the player, choosing to spend hit dice.

The Battemaster Manoeuvres are a bit different again, because D&D combat requires very little engagement of the players with the fiction - that is its notorious "bingo" quality of calling out numbers rolled on dice, comparing them to other numbers, adjusting tallies, etc - and the BM manoeuvres don't seem any more devoid of fiction than those other things. Though "keeping something back" seems like it might be a player-but-not-PC decision.

 

[pemerton]

Dungeon World is a PbtA game that allows players to create the lore for the world on the fly. It's not for me, but I can dig up a link to some actual play podcasts if you want.

The game I listened to had a player describe what was in a tower the group was investigating, it was absolutely the player making changes outside of their PC.

I know the rules of the game quite well. In your example, what was the player changing? It sounds like they were telling the group what their PC remembered.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I played my 5e barbarian/fighter on Wednesday. In that session I spent inspiration, chose to enter a berserk rage, used my Lucky feat to reroll a failed poison save, spent some (but not all) of my hit dice to heal what I needed to, and used some (but not all) of my battlemaster manoeuvres to survive the encounter but also keep something back for the next.

Which of those are decisions my character made, or had any concept of making, and which are decisions that I made as a player existing outside the game world?

The berserk rage and the battlemaster stuff largely reflects PC choice, or at least it can. The Lucky feat does not. Hit dice and inspiration are a judgement call. I personally don't care for hit dice use, inspiration, or the Lucky feat anyway.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But bloodtide is talking about D&D, not other games. I have not heard of people doing this in D&D games and blood implies it is commonplace.

Not in my games. Not sure what he's talking about.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I just want to be sure that you realize there is a difference between having character's actions matter and "altering the game reality." Player's want their choices to matter (have agency), that doesn't mean they want the game reality to change because of those choices.

Though altering the game reality can be pretty rad.

 

[Campbell]

Dungeon World is a PbtA game that allows players to create the lore for the world on the fly. It's not for me, but I can dig up a link to some actual play podcasts if you want.

The game I listened to had a player describe what was in a tower the group was investigating, it was absolutely the player making changes outside of their PC.

That's not how Spout Lore works, like at all.

Spout Lore

When you consult your accumulated knowledge about something, roll+Int.

• On a 10+, the GM will tell you something interesting and useful about the subject relevant to your situation.
• On a 7–9, the GM will only tell you something interesting—it’s on you to make it useful. The GM might ask you “How do you know this?” Tell them the truth, now.

You spout lore any time you want to search your memory for knowledge or facts about something. You take a moment to ponder the things you know about the Orcish Tribes or the Tower of Ul’dammar and then reveal that knowledge.

The knowledge you get is like consulting a bestiary, travel guide, or library. You get facts about the subject matter. On a 10+ the GM will show you how those facts can be immediately useful, on a 7–9 they’re just facts.

On a miss the GM’s move will often involve the time you take thinking. Maybe you miss that goblin moving around behind you, or the tripwire across the hallway. It’s also a great chance to reveal an unwelcome truth.

Just in case it isn’t clear: the answers are always true, even if the GM had to make them up on the spot. Its all part of Playing To See What Happens

{Suggestion for GMs: Keeping a regional almanac that includes notes on what is interesting and useful about places of interest and creatures found there is a good way to partiallly prepare for Spout Lord moves. Make quick notes in your corresponding almanac when you provide the player with new knowledge or they offer it up to you. This will help you keep track and draw on it later during GM Moves. - LAS)

 

[pemerton]

That's not how Spout Lore works, like at all.

But it would be legitimate, if a player makes a successful roll to Spout Lore, for the GM to ask what they were expecting or what they think might be the case. This would be particular application of the general technique of asking questions and building on the answers.

If that happened, the player would be providing their PC's memory, consistent with the move trigger when you consult your accumulated knowledge. So it wouldn't be "altering the game reality" in some fashion "outside of their PC".