D&D General What is player agency to you?

We are talking about the noble background feature, yes?

It says: You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to.

That would HEAVILY seem to imply that, yes, the audience would, at some point, be granted. Sure there might be conditions, the noble doesn't have to be the least bit friendly (and might be quite hostile depending on circumstances) but they WILL meet with you.

A DM that consistently denies the PC an audience (with a noble) when his PC requests one, is denying the use of the feature.
Given that the rest of the description of the noble background makes it clear that you have to work with your DM to determine what type of noble you are and what it means, I don't guarantee anything. If you're a local landholder or have the inherited title of a fallen house, it does grant you some benefits in your local area.

Outside of whatever city or province you're in? Not so much. Heck, it's D&D so you could be on a completely different plane of existence. Being the last earl of house Used-to-be-Locally-Important is not going to get you a seat at the table of the emperor on another continent that has never heard of your country much less a devil noble in Avernus.
 

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I would argue in a D&D game, where the player's PC knows the castle, the DM would simply give them a map of the castle - secret doors and all. So it wouldn't be making up a secret door, it would be: "Look everyone, I know where the secret door is." If the secret door was not on the map, the player could ask if there were any not on the map, thus planting the seed in the DM's mind. They may say yes and draw them in, or they may say no. It seems cool, so many DMs might go along with it. Others might have a very specific reason why they are not there, like the antagonist sealed them up because they don't want people who know about it to take advantage of it. And another DM might have already put them on the map, but trapped the hell out of them because that's what the antagonist would do if they knew about them. But in the end, it all boils down to the DM.

So, when I run D&D 5e, I most often don't have locations mapped out ahead of time. I realize this may be different than the way many people do it, but I point it out so that I can be clear that I'm talking about 5e and not some other game.

If the DM has decided that long ago any secret passages have been blocked up or what have you, this is the DM placing his prep above player agency.

If as you say, in the end it all boils down to the DM, then that doesn't sound like player agency is a concern.

I am not sure why you are trying to convince me that your use of ‘what happens’ is correct and mine is wrong. As I said two times already, we simply use different terms for the same thing. We agree on the subject. My ‘what happens’ is your ‘outcome’.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you are making a distinction where I am not. At least not always. Actions and outcomes of those actions are both things that happen in play. And sometimes, the player gets to say both.

it certainly says nothing about an audience being guaranteed. I don’t think it said anything at all about audiences, at least the version I read online.

EDIT: found it “You can secure an audience with a local noble if you need to.”. Doesn’t change what I said, whether you get one depends on circumstances.


In general I am not that happy with the description of the background “Thanks to your noble birth, people are inclined to think the best of you. […] The common folk make every effort to accommodate you” certainly was not always true throughout history either, so this too depends on circumstances / the setting


yes, I would expect that to be the case, I just used it to demonstrate that an audience is not guaranteed. The same would be true if you were on a different continent / world where nobody recognizes you / your title


Depends on how you interpret it. To me, it means I can do it because it says "You can secure an audience..." It doesn't say "You might be able to if circumstances allow..." or anything like that.

Let's look at another similar example: the Fighter's Action Surge.

It says: "Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a bonus action."

Do you interpret this ability the same? That it depends on circumstances?

This is an example of the player getting to say what happens. I get another action now. The DM can't deny that.


I am not sure where in my reply that you quoted you infer that DM approval is required. I said pretty much the opposite (“imo the GM can never say ‘you cannot do that’, short of it being literally impossible”)

It was this bit below. But it was also just a statement about agency as it pertains to the overall discussion.
All the GM has control over is the outcome, and even that should be reasonable.

Very often the rules have control over the outcome. Combat, spell use, a lot of ability checks and skill use... the DM doesn't have control over these things in play.

If you think he cannot even prevent impossible things, then let me introduce you to my fireball casting Fighter ;)

Why would a fighter try and cast a fireball?

I'm not talking about things that are not allowed per the rules, or that contradict what's already been established. I'm talking about things that the rules say I can do.
 

Given that the rest of the description of the noble background makes it clear that you have to work with your DM to determine what type of noble you are and what it means, I don't guarantee anything. If you're a local landholder or have the inherited title of a fallen house, it does grant you some benefits in your local area.
that is pretty much the only noble you will be in my game (outside of earning more than that during the campaign), I certainly won’t let you be the son of the God-Emperor of Most-of-the-known-world ;)
 
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Let's look at another similar example: the Fighter's Action Surge.

It says: "Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a bonus action."

Do you interpret this ability the same? That it depends on circumstances?
no, this always works, as there are no external dependencies

Very often the rules have control over the outcome. Combat, spell use, a lot of ability checks and skill use... the DM doesn't have control over these things in play.
I did not say the DM has exclusive and complete control over the outcome ;) To me that was covered by the ‘reasonable’ bit

Why would a fighter try and cast a fireball?
agency ;) It’s just an example for something where the DM can actually say ‘you cannot do that’
 
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Given that the rest of the description of the noble background makes it clear that you have to work with your DM to determine what type of noble you are and what it means, I don't guarantee anything. If you're a local landholder or have the inherited title of a fallen house, it does grant you some benefits in your local area.

Outside of whatever city or province you're in? Not so much. Heck, it's D&D so you could be on a completely different plane of existence. Being the last earl of house Used-to-be-Locally-Important is not going to get you a seat at the table of the emperor on another continent that has never heard of your country much less a devil noble in Avernus.

I take a different approach.

The feature (position of privilege) allows exactly what it says - basically anywhere you happen to be. Stuck in the City of Brass (elemental plane of fire) - you can get an audience with a noble if you really want to. This is a great way to drive the game forward! And it can really lead to fun and interesting things happening.
 




And would you say you decided this based on something explicit in the text, or more about how you choose to interpret it?
the text, if the Noble background said it enabled you to once a day lift a weight of a ton, you also always can do so. As soon as there are external dependencies, there is no guarantee.

Specifically the “Work with your DM to come up with an appropriate title and determine how much authority that title carries” to me means the DM has a say in this, and that can still be on the fly because not every possible situation was covered beforehand.
 

nothing wrong with that, I just do not agree that the background requires the DM to always grant an audience with everyone and everywhere
I think that in the case of the Noble background feature the DM needs to have a very good reason to flatly deny it. That doesn't mean the audience needs to happen right this instant when it's maximally convenient for the PC.
 

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