D&D General What Should Today's Archetypes Be

[Ruin Explorer]

Tolkien would still be out there, and still be in the public consciousness. It may not be as different as you think.

LotR is BUT it's not really something people draw their own characters from much, if at all, even for my generation.

For starters, I dunno if you noticed, but a lot more women play RPGs now, and Tolkien has approximate zero valid female characters, certainly zero adventurers (and no Arwen doesn't count and Eowyn isn't even close to counting). So that's like 30-50% of your players just right out the door right then. (Honestly LotR is way more of a sausagefest than Le Morte D'Arthur which really an achievement).

Second off, LotR doesn't have many characters that match up well with D&D classes. You've basically got... Fighters. That's it. Maybe you could make an extremely stretched case that, technically, Sam is a Paladin. It's cute but it's a stretch. The hobbits don't do Rogue stuff, really. Aragorn doesn't do really any Ranger things. At all. Gandalf doesn't even really do much Wizard stuff. Hell most of the Fighters don't even do Fighter stuff.

It's a fun set of movies (yeah I went there) but apart from a small percentage of people going "I'm going to make Legolas" before realizing D&D 5E doesn't support that all that well, that's basically got no impact (Legolas' haircut has had a profound impact on elven haircuts in like every game though I'll tell you that).

Compare and contrast with anime or video games or fantasy novels or fantasy TV shows and cartoons, all of which are vastly more diverse not just in male/female/other, or non-white ways, or disabled/able ways, but also in the simple sense that they have more different characters with different abilities, and way more of those characters have the sort of flashy magical powers most D&D characters have, and way more of them do fantastic stuff with their abilities. They also act, look and talk much more like most D&D characters.

And why do these characters have those powers and mannerisms and so on? BECAUSE OF D&D. We're on like third generation of a feedback loop here! Almost all of this stuff exists or portrayed the way it is because of D&D. Not because of Tolkien. Because of D&D. And thus it's much more relevant to D&D than a series of novels that basically only influenced D&D in any major way by putting certain races into the game. And they've been there for decades now, so their origin is almost irrelevant. They're D&D races.

 

[FrogReaver]

Fighter, Mage, Expert. Hybrids of these.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Given that Harry Potter is a hugely influential fantasy work not particularly inspired in any way by D&D, should "Wizard" as an archetype be included with very direct HP trappings, in the same way Vancian magic was a core element of OD&D?

Yes and it wouldn't even be much of a change - I'd start with a Sorcerer base maybe - Just make HP-style Wizards' special deal be that they can cast "straight from the book", perhaps with some limited resource or some kind of check or whatever (an Arcana check would be pretty thematic) if they want to cast spells that aren't Known for them, and let them change their Known spells regularly by sitting and studying, and oh force them to use a wand - generally very few casters today shouldn't be using some kind of focus.

 

[Minigiant]

There was a time when I thought about creating a modern OSR meets 5e meet 4e Essential RPG of just today's popular fantasy archetypes

The list I was going with was

1. Arcanist- A wand/staff swinger who could only do complex magic via long rituals or crafted potions
   1. Harry Potter
   2. Harry Dresden
2. Berserker- The raw brute of strength, speed,and size who can go into rages and frenzies
   1. Conan
   2. Hulk
   3. Brock Samson
3. Crusader- The holy warrior who gain buffs based on their worshiped deity
   1. Samson
   2. Chaos Marines
4. Elementalist- The master of an element or elements.
   1. Avatar Series
   2. Sailor Moon
   3. Elsa
   4. Ninjago
5. Knight- The specially trained warrior who is trained in noble affairs
   1. ASOIAF male nobles
6. Priest- The miracle worker
   1. Most religious figures reported to have does miracles or powerful acts via faith
7. Ranger- Warriors who utilize the power of nature
   1. Poison Ivy
   2. Swamp Thing
   3. Aquaman
   4. Beast
   5. Beast Boy
   6. Beastmaster
8. Scoundrel- Thieves assassins and other members of the Underworld.
9. Swashbuckler- The light acrobatic warrior who focuses on aglity and wit
   1. PoTC characters
   2. Disney's Alladin
   3. Indiana Jones
10. Weaponmaster- General master of traditional use of weapons and armors
11. Wizard- D&D Style book wizard

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Pretend, for a moment, that D&D was created today and was laying down the framework for the way we talk about fantasy in gaming. Yes, I know it's impossible given how influential D&D has been on fantasy, but go with me here.

In 1974, there was the Fighting Man, Magic User and Cleric (and later thief), informed by Appendix N and wargames.

What do you think the core archetypes would be if D&D were invented today? What inspirational media make you think those particular ones would be foundational?

For my part, I think "fantasy hero archetypes" that aren't just derivative of D&D archetypes, and are represented in media, might look more like the core classes from D20 Modern: Smart Hero, Strong Hero, etc... if you think about characters in ensemble heroic action media, they tend to be defined more by those traits than their "class."

What do you think the core archetypes of an invented now D&D would be, in an alternate universe where D&D did not define gaming fantasy?

Captain - Fantasy is full of Captain America types. The Fearless Leader. The Commanding Charismatic Hero.

Expert - Scholarly or knowledgeable hero with specialties and probably decent at some of what the alchemist and sorcerer can do but mostly about knowledge, etc

Assassin - The shadowy lethal hero. Yes, hero. Based more on the romantic view of The Assassins, as fearless champions of thier people against more powerful forces. Contains a lot of the Ranger’s focus and targeted strikes and the rogues stealth and find and exploiting advantage. Can skirmish, but excels when moving in and out of shadow.

Jack - the trickster. Can be magic or not, often blurs the line between skill and the supernatural, has luck mechanics and the most general skills.

Knight or Champion - The big stalwart. Can be the immovable object or unstoppable force as a build choice or maybe a stance type thing, whatever, can make attacks to defend allies or stagger enemies, etc. not distinct moves, just some form of “when you attack you can impose one of these effects” type feature.

Sorcerer - This is the magic focused class. Imagine a warlock with a spellbook, more than a wizard.

Alchemist - Fully a hermetic mystic alchemist. Not the potion and bomb maker of D&D and pathfinder and such, no, this is the class that embraces science and magic as one thing. Can evoke and invoke power into things, craft items of power, dabble in what other magic users do, understands magic as part of [science].

Priest - Wards and barriers, dispelling and banishing, blessings and banes, at high level can call angels by name and gain thier aid, type stuff. Not themselves a direct combatant, normally.

Duelist - The swordmaster, kensei, etc. can move and attack too fast to track visually, has secret techniques that are mystical but not spell-like at all, not similar to the magic classes.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Or

Some sort of two-axis system of archetypes where the mage guy can also be a swordmaster. Basically split the like Identity archetypes from the…”how you do stuff” archetypes,, and you pick one of each.

I think that would fit a lot of fantasy better than a more basic class-like structure.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Or

Some sort of two-axis system of archetypes where the mage guy can also be a swordmaster. Basically split the like Identity archetypes from the…”how you do stuff” archetypes,, and you pick one of each.

I think that would fit a lot of fantasy better than a more basic class-like structure.

gestalt moment

 

[doctorbadwolf]

gestalt moment

Not totally sure what “moment” means here, but gestalt yeah kinda. Like, you’re a Knight, which has in-world stuff and mechanical stuff like protection and martial prowess, and you’re a Warder which means you do magic of warding and barriers and protection, repulsion, banishment, and the like.

 

[Aldarc]

IMHO, one reason that it's difficult for me to say is because (A) fantasy is arguably a lot more diverse in its tone, scope, and sources now than it was during the times of Gary Gygax (e.g., New Wave fantasy, Sword & Sorcery, LotR, etc.), and (B) it really depends on who is holding the knife and deciding the classes.

I think that if we are talking about a OD&D style first take of fantasy nowadays, I would first look at what has become the new holy trinity of fantasy classes: i.e., warrior, rogue, and mage. This has been influenced by D&D, but it's also different.

A lot of fantasy adventure games and media aren't terribly interested in the cleric or priest. It's still out there, but it's either (a) secularized, (b) looks different from a D&D-style cleric (e.g., heavily armored to lightly armored), or (c) exists as something more akin to a white mage or healer.

Expanding beyond this? I'm not sure, because I think that my own biases would factor into this a bit too strong. However, I would argue that classes would or even should be designed more around playstyles and broad-archetypes that people are drawn to playing rather than trying to emulate particular media. For example, a number of video games include what I sometimes refer to as an "edge lord" caster (e.g., warlock, necromancer, etc.). I think that if D&D was made anew nowadays, the edge lord caster would be its own class rather than locked behind different classes.

 

[Zardnaar]

Wizards wiukd privably be a but different, Druids would be more shape changers.
Prime influence.

LotR
Warcraft
Harry Potter
Game of Thrones
MCU

Warcraft may not exist though idk.

Clerics may not exist as such and Wizards woukd be different imho.

Dailies probably wouldn't exist either spell points or some form of encounter type powers mixed with rituals.

Major encounter powers 1/encounter
Minor encounter powers 2/encounter
At wills

Spells over level 3 or 4 probably wouldn't exist. Maybe rituals eg to raise the dead or teloport circles.