D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Micah Sweet]

Actually, Gary was extremely clear that it wasn't.

Not his opinion on what was best, and fortunate that it was that way and not some other way? Because that's what I'm talking about.

Also, Gary was remarkably inconsistent.

 

[Thomas Shey]

An opinion does not become objective simply because a lot of people believe it. I don't care if I'm an outlier or not.

And most people are sloppy about distinguishing their own taste and generalities, even when they recognize the difference. Getting worked up about that unless someone insists on asserting it a universal is asking for a lot of frustration, but if that's what you want to do, that's what you want to do; for the rank and file usage, its not a particularly worthwhile battle to keep fighting, but you can make your own choices.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Ok. I just finished my first session of PF2E recently, and the impression I got was that it was incredibly rules-heavy on the player side, and the published adventure felt extremely artificial and mostly designed to take you from one fight to the next.

While rules-heavy can translate into gamist, its not a one-to-one correspondance.

 

[Micah Sweet]

While rules-heavy can translate into gamist, its not a one-to-one correspondance.

I never said it did, hence the "ok". I was just explaining my experience.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And most people are sloppy about distinguishing their own taste and generalities, even when they recognize the difference. Getting worked up about that unless someone insists on asserting it a universal is asking for a lot of frustration, but if that's what you want to do, that's what you want to do; for the rank and file usage, its not a particularly worthwhile battle to keep fighting, but you can make your own choices.

People being sloppy on their arguments, especially when they make such an argument that speaks to an "objective" fact that is anything but, is entirely on them. I would expect and have had people call me out when my own arguments are flawed.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I never said it did, hence the "ok". I was just explaining my experience.

Indeed. There are lots of rules, but they're all designed to closely match the fiction. I could be mistaken on that part?

 

[Gammadoodler]

Let's see. There are no time restrictions on martial maneuvers? Every thing is written so that the rule process matches the fiction? I haven't really played it myself but I never seen anyone around here complain that it's too gamist?

Don't get me wrong, I love PF2e, but it is extremely gamist, and some of its greatest virtues (tight balance, engaging combat, rewarding team play, easier encounter tuning) are a direct result of this.

But it also manifests in things like leveled equipment, which seemingly do not exist anywhere in the world.. until the PCs are at a level appropriate to recieve them.

But, while I think it's fair to say that the design ethos for PF2e is "game first", most of my experience with PF2e has been that, with few exceptions, the mechanics in place are there to give players more agency over their interactions with the world. They are (mostly in my experience) mechanics tied to fiction.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
Folks, the head-butting needs to stop. Thanks.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Indeed. There are lots of rules, but they're all designed to closely match the fiction. I could be mistaken on that part?

The problem as I see it is that the rules are complex, numerous, player-facing, and mandatory. IMO, most of the rules should be on the GM side, so the players don't have a ton to parse and remember unless they play something that requires it.

 

[pemerton]

Its not clear to me.

But people are telling you: this character is saying goading things to some NPCs, and as a result their dander is up to such a degree that they attack the character. That's a description of a non-supernatural event.

Walking into any situation at all and forcing people to attack you is mundane? Really?

That's not what the mooted ability says.

I'll quote it:

As an action you toss out an insult to all nearby enemies within 30 feet. They must all roll wisdom saves. If they fail, they must spend their reaction to move their move speed up to you. You then get a free attack action.

So what we get, from this ability, is a certain number of occasions (how many will depend on the number of times the ability is used by the player who has it on their PC sheet) in which nearby enemies, goaded by a person, attack that person. Each of those occasions is a mundane event. We know that it is mundane, because the ability tells us so: the enemies pile on the one who goaded them in response to being goaded.

You may not care for that fiction: that's your prerogative. But it's not a fiction about supernatural events.

if a specific mechanical implementation can easily cause in-universe results which are implausible even within the context of the fiction, at some point doesn't such an ability start measuring up to the in-genre definition of magic?

No. It just means that the fiction isn't one that you care for.