D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Cadence]

It's about time we cut back on caster powers

Bitter about gettint hit by someone fishing while you were trying to swim or boat?

(Apparently I'm well past bed time. Sorry-ish)

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, I'd be fine with martials doing gonzo stuff. Not sure what my specific line is, but for generic Marvel comparisons, I'd expect to have D&D Hulks as the martial mirrors to the D&D Dr. Stranges (at high levels ar least). What that means in terms of actual D&D powers I'd leave to others.

To be clearer with respect to wizards and bards...

Let's say you have a thief rogue with expertise in arcana, and a 6-Int wizard. The rogue probably knows more about magic than the wizard right? But they can't cast spells and the wizard can..

..why?

Same for bards. Some performers can do magic and others can't, and there's no inherent tie to any particular skill or ability.

Tbh, I forgot about the warlock entirely (almost forgot the druid), but some similar gaps remain. For example, do all folks who make a deal with fiend get warlock powers, or did the PC do something special, or is the PC special?

Who cares, the player chose a fiend warlock patron, they have fiend warlock powers.

The Hulk is a supernatural being by anyone's standard. And that's ok.

 

[Campbell]

Getting hit by a 2-ton Boulder should probably kill you too.

As should getting hit by a giant's club which is probably about the same amount of force.

 

[Cadence]

Based on my knowledge of Marvel, that is exactly how it is with Cap and Herc.

I concur.

And Aragorn and Boromir were very impressive fighters, but when the Balrog showed up and Gandalf told them to go, they went.

As a Silmarillion fan, the only ones in the fellowship who impress me (relatively speaking) are Frodo and Sam.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I’m not sure what you have in mind here, but if you have in mind “Fighters can defeat lions 1v1 in martial combat with their bare hands,” then the only feasible answer is “fighters must become superhuman in at least the ways lions are superhuman.”

Everything about lions makes them not just marginally more capable than us in physical combat, but truly staggeringly so. Beyond strength, burst explosiveness in every direction, top speed:

* Their reaction speed to visual stimuli is like 3-4 times faster than ours.

* Their epidermis makes them much more durable, more resistant to catastrophic injury.

* Their spines have freakish flexion that gives them body control and mobility that we can’t come close to mustering.

* They play and train, cradle to grave, for martial arts to develop and adapt techniques to engage, disable, and disengage large varieties of prey. They’re like kids and Muay Thai in Thailand.


They’re so beyond humans that the conversation requires a complete compartmentalization to even have it. The kind of compartmentalization that just arbitrarily excuses D&D’s Gamist, genre soup with these strange incoherencies. The only “happy medium to resolve these incoherencies means “blatant superhero.” We aren’t talking about someone who might beat 1 lion in 10. THAT individual would be a superhero. We’re talking about someone who lines up lions like bowling pins and flushes strike after strike after strike. Wash/rinse/repeat. Vegas takes the D&D Fighter vs Lion odds off the table because it kills the house.

If that D&D Fighter…when compared to a lion…isn’t significantly more explosive and durable, with significantly more trunk flexion, balance, proprioception, and reaction time, and with a collection of answers born from a cradle to grave regime of training?

Well…that foundational piece of the D&D puzzle (the Fighter’s mysterious physical prowess) is a killshot to any pretense to realism.

I have stipulated to your lion facts already; no need for the wall of text. I'm saying if you wanted humans to be both as weak and as awesome as they are in real life, I'm in.

 

[Micah Sweet]

As should getting hit by a giant's club which is probably about the same amount of force.

If you're actually hit solidly, yes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I’m not sure what you have in mind here, but if you have in mind “Fighters can defeat lions 1v1 in martial combat with their bare hands,” then the only feasible answer is “fighters must become superhuman in at least the ways lions are superhuman.”

Everything about lions makes them not just marginally more capable than us in physical combat, but truly staggeringly so. Beyond strength, burst explosiveness in every direction, top speed:

* Their reaction speed to visual stimuli is like 3-4 times faster than ours.

* Their epidermis makes them much more durable, more resistant to catastrophic injury.

* Their spines have freakish flexion that gives them body control and mobility that we can’t come close to mustering.

* They play and train, cradle to grave, for martial arts to develop and adapt techniques to engage, disable, and disengage large varieties of prey. They’re like kids and Muay Thai in Thailand.


They’re so beyond humans that the conversation requires a complete compartmentalization to even have it. The kind of compartmentalization that just arbitrarily excuses D&D’s Gamist, genre soup with these strange incoherencies. The only “happy medium to resolve these incoherencies means “blatant superhero.” We aren’t talking about someone who might beat 1 lion in 10. THAT individual would be a superhero. We’re talking about someone who lines up lions like bowling pins and flushes strike after strike after strike. Wash/rinse/repeat. Vegas takes the D&D Fighter vs Lion odds off the table because it kills the house.

If that D&D Fighter…when compared to a lion…isn’t significantly more explosive and durable, with significantly more trunk flexion, balance, proprioception, and reaction time, and with a collection of answers born from a cradle to grave regime of training?

Well…that foundational piece of the D&D puzzle (the Fighter’s mysterious physical prowess) is a killshot to any pretense to realism.

By the way, do people actually portray human fighters the way you describe?

 

[Manbearcat]

I have stipulated to your lion facts already; no need for the wall of text. I'm saying if you wanted humans to be both as weak and as awesome as they are in real life, I'm in.

You’re saying “humans,” but we’re tking about the class “Fighter,” right?

And if we are, again, I don’t know what your solve is here for “making them as weak and as awesome as they are in real life?” If you’re making them as weak as in real life, then we need to get rid of the Dragon part of Dungeons and Dragons. Again, it can’t even be Dungeons and Lions!

What are we imagining here? Dungeons and…Iguanas…Undersized Canines?

Majesty will no longer be beheld!

EDIT: We cross-posted.

By the way, do people actually portray human fighters the way you describe?

I’m not clear what you mean. We’re talking about a D&D PC build and action resolution mechanics yielding a multidimensional mismatch between what the D&D Fighter can perform in combat, vs the superheroic feats that same D&D Fighter must be able to perform out if combat in order to pull off these superheroic feats in combat…yet they cannot…and the answer to the second part of this mismatch somehow being a “I see your mismatch and I raise you a mismatch” with “because realism.”

 

[Cadence]

You’re saying “humans,” but we’re tking about the class “Fighter,” right?

And if we are, again, I don’t know what your solve is here for “making them as weak and as awesome as they are in real life?” If you’re making them as weak as in real life, then we need to get rid of the Dragon part of Dungeons and Dragons. Again, it can’t even be Dungeons and Lions!

What are we imagining here? Dungeons and…Iguanas…Undersized Canines?

Majesty will no longer be beheld!

Why again are we trying to kill the dragons (or even lions) 1v1 with bare hands instead of with a party using cool magic stuff?.

(But please, yes, for the dragons, don't make the fighters as burny as they would be in our world!!)

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'll just note that there are all kinds of low-incidence events that games ignore. We don't usually deal with the people who fall off a stool and break their necks, either.

I'm sure the same people standing in the way of taunting would love to add that option in.