D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Oofta]

I gave you a hypothetical adventure that mirrors the plot of Die Hard and asked you to reply with what PC level you'd expect it to be.

Now, in fairness, I didn't ask you to state why you'd give it that level, but if you would do that as well, I think it'd be nice.

What are the opponents? What level are they?

 

[Gammadoodler]

What are the opponents? What level are they?

Whatever the D&D equivalent of Cold Ear era Eastern European mercenaries who die to 2-6 bullet wounds and/or nearby explosives would be.

Edit: is there a Die Hard movie where he doesn't fight Eastern Europeans? They seem disproportionately well-represented in his rogues gallery.

 

[Oofta]

Whatever the D&D equivalent of Cold Ear era Eastern European mercenaries who die to 2-6 bullet wounds and/or nearby explosives would be.

Why does it matter? I'm not seeing the relevance here.

 

[Cadence]

agree that fighters have always been quite super-human when comparing what they can regularly do with reality as we understand it. That's a position I've pretty much always held in the inevitable "fighters don't get nice things", "fighters are mundane", whatever debates. But even if people were to accept that truth, it just kicks the can down the road a bit. Just how supernatural should they be? Aragorn? Conan? Hawkeye? Daredevil? Gawaine? Captain America? Beowulf? Hercules?

Is this one of the great game classifiers we don't talk about? Narrative vs. Trad and then M3PL (Maximum Mundane Martial Power Level)

In 5E, the mundane fighter can kill a giant by, essentially, sticking it repeatedly in the shin with a needle, but cannot trip the giant or force it to move. Realism!

Can they trip an ooze or gelatinous cube though? (Or is that another edition or an urban legend).

If their would be suddenly Aliens in Die Hard,

Another reason to wish Bruce Willis was healthy. Something like "Even Aliens Die Hard" or "Predator vs McClane" could be fun. But, as you say, because people would know what they're getting going in.

are they really so far out from the classic barbarian archetype, maybe their jumping is a bit outside the norm but is that more a result of DnD's underpowered feats of physical strength? but give hulk a greatsword or battleaxe instead of their fists and they'd fit right in as an orc or goliath barbarian.

He feels like a little stronger than the typical orc or goliath? ...

The point is that the guy had plot armor up the wazoo. Just like D&D fighters, especially at higher levels. Meanwhile, while he only interacted with the world around him physically, many of the things he did only had one in a million chance to survive.

I think I posted elsewhere that we could rename them as PAPs (plot armor points). If not, I should have.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Why does it matter? I'm not seeing the relevance here.

Because we're saying John McLane should be a high level fighter example in D&D.

Where are his high-level adventures that he addresses the way a high-level fighter would?

 

[Vaalingrade]

How is it that Die Hard is allowed to be more fantastic than literally a game about dungeons and dragons?

 

[Micah Sweet]

First of all, there's no "you" here...it's a PC ability to be used on NPCs. And wisdom checks are just an abstract mechanic to implement the idea that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Do you have another preferred mechanism for implementing that? I don't expect/believe that you are saying it should never work. Just sometimes. And the way D&D and other games represent that is through saving throws or ability checks.

That you don't make it a power. You talk to your GM and describe what you're trying to do. If they think it would definitely work, it works. If they think it definitely doesn't work, it doesn't. If they're not sure, an appropriate ability (with appropriate modifiers) is performed.

You know, the gameplay loop.

 

[Manbearcat]

Sorry, we'll just have to disagree about that. The Wikipedia entry for 'Magic' literally has the title 'Magic(supernatural)'. Now, in all fairness the term magic is usually linked to the practice of magic in the form of rituals, etc. but there is no separation between what his magical and what is supernatural, magic is simply a cultural manifestation of the supernatural. Thus in metaphysical terms they are entirely cognate. When I say that magical abilities cannot be described and explained logically, and thus cannot be subject to verisimilitude, this is a principle which applies to ANY supernatural thing, not just spell casting. Supernatural fighting ability, especially when it is marked by such an illogically narrow applicability as @Manbearcat points out, IS MAGIC. The lack of "I wave my hands to make this happen" is irrelevant.

My full line of rationale is this:

* What D&D Fighters can do early to mid-level (forget about late game for now!), when contrasted with their tail-of-the-distribution, earth-human counterparts is absolutely superhuman. And its not close. They are orders of magnitude more capable than their earth counterparts.

* The only way for this to make any sense (“realism”), is for their physical metrics (reaction time, power to weight ratio, flexion/balance/explosivity, durability to injury) to similarly transcend apex earth-humans. They should be running sub 3 second 40 yard dashes with 10 yard splits sub 1 (4.3 and 1.5 are “freaky” humans) with insane standing broad jump (20 feet vs 12), vertical jump (80 inches vs 45), and change of direction (3 cone drill time around 4 flat vs our apex times of 6.5ish) while measuring deadlifting and pressing and dragging in “car values” vs lbs or kilos. The way their epidermal functions should be like bears or at least big cats. They should embarrass professional MLB hitters in reaction time/processing. They should produce the flexion of world class contortionists and balance that embarrasses world class gymnasts.

But…they don’t. Not even close.

So the core of the D&D Fighter produces a deeply realism-thwarting platform for gameplay. A completely incoherent supernatural/mundane toggle of “in combat/out of combat.”

* Somewhat related, Damage On a Miss is the only thing that makes any sense from a realism perspective. You don’t come out clean from any, even brief, melee clash…even if its just spent gas tank (which HP folds in “gastank” in its modeling…it must). The cost of heart rate increase and cortisol dump of a single exchange is significant. And the better the martial artist, the greater the “gastank toll” on their adversary. So if you want “realism” regarding Damage on a Miss, we need MOAR DoaM, not less, with more potent practioners inflicting more collateral harm and “gastank toll” on a per melee clash basis.

 

[Micah Sweet]

As opposed to morale checks in earlier editions where creatures were one failed roll away from running for combat? Gee, I wonder why I find your objection silly.

Circumstances apply to that check, and it doesn't result in the target disregarding their survival instincts. Someone's making a silly argument here, but it's not me.

 

[Gammadoodler]

That you don't make it a power. You talk to your GM and describe what you're trying to do. If they think it would definitely work, it works. If they think it definitely doesn't work, it doesn't. If they're not sure, an appropriate ability (with appropriate modifiers) is performed.

You know, the gameplay loop.

There is no essential reason this loop should be different for comparable magic abilities.