D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, I don't think that's an absolute. 4e has rules for applying character classes to NPCs as well (its a bit different from actually doing up a PC, but there are 'templates' for every PC class to apply it to a monster). NPCs effectively have a 'level' (5e obscures this a bit by calling it CR and using a bit different scale). There's no reason to assume that 'Fighter' is a profession (or Battlemaster for that matter). I mean, I'm not in charge of how you conceive of the game world, I'm just saying it is a perfectly valid way to look at it that PCs are unique and the fact that one has a given ability implies NOTHING about anyone else in the whole game world. I see nothing in 5e which undermines that view as a general thing. I get it, traditionally most classic D&D GMs and products have assumed that class levels are generic descriptions. I just don't and I am pointing out that it goes a long ways to solving people's objections.

Such interpretation also erodes what many see as one important function of the rules: telling us about the world.

 

[Vaalingrade]

No. It breaks D&D. It would make it unplayable and it would stop to be D&D.

Then explain all spellcasting.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But, as I said, there is no substantive difference.

Yes there is.

Being part of a category doesn't make one the entire category.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If you ignore the setting and technology, he hides in airvents and elevator shafts and kills one guy with a chain once.

Is that the goal we're striving for for our D&D martials.

That's the bare minimum we're not allowed to have. Because someone who has never hung a man by a chain one-handed thinks it can't possibly be done.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I still have no idea what you're getting at. You're comparing a guy who has access to modern weaponry to someone running around in armor stabbing people. Make the fighter a dex based fighter with training in stealth and you would get the same feel.

I'm done answering this the same way.

So here's the thing, the "fighter's need to be mundane crowd" (including yourself on many many occasions) point to John McLain and other 80's action heroes as their go to reference point for what fighter capabilities should be..

..at any level.

What we don't get..ever..including just now with you..again..

..is how the tactics, capabilities, and vulnerabilities of these 80s action heroes actually square with the scope, tactics, and hazards relevant in high level D&D adventures.

High level melee fighters are not hiding in air vents from "mercenary no 5" and "unnamed lackey with machete". They are running toward them by the most direct path, slicing them down and then running past their corpses, again by the most direct path, to the hulking fire lizard beyond.

This just isn't 80's action heroes' brand of combat, and, in my opinion, we should stop acting like it should be.

 

[M_Natas]

I

Then explain all spellcasting.

If you want to make it a spell or magical ability, it's fine. It actually already exists and is called command or (mass) suggestion.

 

[Campbell]

Let's just say, that in D&D (5e, I haven't played the older editions) anything that compels Player Characters, NPCs, Creatures to do exactly something is a magical ability.
That is one of the Design principles of D&D 5e and I completely agree with that.

It's a fine design philosophy to have and totally fine to prefer that sort of philosophy. What I do not think is fine is to assess other versions of the game (and other games) that do not have that design philosophy as if they did. That leads to a wildly inaccurate view of how play actually works in 3e, 4e and both versions of Pathfinder which all feature defined extraordinary abilities that impact characters thoughts and feelings.

No matter how one feels about it the following use of Diplomacy from Pathfinder Second Edition is not magic nor is it mind control in the fiction of the game:

Request (Auditory, Concentrate, Linguistic, Mental)

You can make a request of a creature that’s friendly or helpful to you. You must couch the request in terms that the target would accept given their current attitude toward you. The GM sets the DC based on the difficulty of the request. Some requests are unsavory or impossible, and even a helpful NPC would never agree to them.

Critical Success The target agrees to your request without qualifications.
Success The target agrees to your request, but they might demand added provisions or alterations to the request.
Failure The target refuses the request, though they might propose an alternative that is less extreme.
Critical Failure Not only does the target refuse the request, but their attitude toward you decreases by one step due to the temerity of the request.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I

If you want to make it a spell or magical ability, it's fine. It actually already exists and is called command or (mass) suggestion.

So if it's magic, it's okay to 'break D&D'?

 

[M_Natas]

It's a fine design philosophy to have and totally fine to prefer that sort of philosophy. What I do not think is fine is to assess other versions of the game (and other games) that do not have that design philosophy as if they did. That leads to a wildly inaccurate view of how play actually works in 3e, 4e and both versions of Pathfinder which all feature defined extraordinary abilities that impact characters thoughts and feelings.

No matter how one feels about it the following use of Diplomacy from Pathfinder Second Edition is not magic nor is it mind control in the fiction of the game:

Looks like an awful rule ready to be misused and leading to a lot of discussion about what a reasonable request is.

 

[billd91]

This begs the question. And not the important part.

How are John Wick, James Bond and John McLane appropriate D&D fighter exemplars? (Or Hawkeye, the Punisher, and Black Widow for that matter)

Largely because their style of combat is via martial prowess rather than spell, mystical ability, or blatantly reality defying superpower (like a power blast, repulsor beam, psychic attack). There are, of course, legions of examples in fantasy literature to form a baseline - one that John Wick, James Bond, Punisher, Hawkeye, and John McClane fit with very well as action hero analogs. And even Captain America and Black Widow, recipients of super science interventions, would probably slot in below classical mythic figures like Achilles in raw capability. And Achilles kind of pushes the envelope on a fighter exemplar since his gifts aren't even because of his martial prowess but because he wasn't born completely mortal and received a powerful magical intervention (I mean, honestly, he's a fighter with multiple, probably-OP templates attached from a very friendly DM).