D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[mamba]

High level D&D PCs are allllll ridiculous. It's not like the fighter is out of place.

agreed, the casters need to be taken down a few notches

Hell, by the standards folks like you are applying, they're the most "realistic" of the bunch.

also true, not sure you are making the point you intend to make however

 

[Oofta]

This is how I personally translate what you are saying. The ability in question is explicitly not magic. There are no incantations, no supplication of eldritch horrors, no prayers. They are just that damn good. You do not have to like the ability or wish to play in a game where that is something someone who is just that damn good can do but continuing to frame everything that falls outside of your specific aesthetic tastes as magic is decidedly unhelpful.

We can talk about how we want things to be, but insisting on using a framing that delegitimizes and misrepresents approaches to the game you do not care for does no one any good.

A fighter may be supernaturally strong, resilient and capable of wacking things. What I do not want them to be is supernaturally able to influence reality outside of how they physically interact with that reality physically.

If you want that, there are plenty of classes and other games.

 

[Micah Sweet]

High level D&D PCs are allllll ridiculous. It's not like the fighter is out of place.

Hell, by the standards folks like you are applying, they're the most "realistic" of the bunch.

Not having magic and doing what they do makes them  more ridiculous.

 

[Gammadoodler]

agreed, they all need to be taken down a bit, the casters more than the meleers


also true, not sure you are making the point you intend to make however

It cuts both ways certainly.

 

[M_Natas]

Does ENWorld dictate how you play D&D? I didn't think so.

No. But it is always an uphill battle to remove a class ability or nerf it.
Like in my Spelljammer Campaign when I said no Clerics and Warlocks at level 1, because of Inworld-Reasons I suddenly had an hour long discussion of how that is unfair and taking away player agency ...

Like I pointed out, the DMG says "The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren’t in charge. You’re the DM, and you are in charge of the game." Does it need to be more explicit than that?

 

[Oofta]

Fine. Not explicit except at your table. Cool.

Also the opinion of several other people on this thread. But this is all structured make believe so it's not like there's any "true" answer. It's all just opinion, and in my opinion the feature would not fit D&D's core assumptions.

 

[Micah Sweet]

A fighter may be supernaturally strong, resilient and capable of wacking things. What I do not want them to be is supernaturally able to influence reality outside of how they physically interact with that reality physically.

If you want that, there are plenty of classes and other games.

Just remember, if  anything is unrealistic,  all of it is and it doesn't matter.

 

[Aldarc]

Please show where anyone said that. You can taunt all you want, the reaction of the target will be up to the DM's judgement because barring magic the DM is responsible for the reactions of NPCs. There are some battlemaster maneuvers that I consider explicitly supernatural which is fine. I don't have to play that subclass. But they still don't force an enemy to use their reaction to approach and they certainly don't affect every enemy within 30 feet.

Do the creators of WotC consider them supernatural? Or is this a fiction of your own device that you impose on the game to reconcile your own cognitive biases? I think that it's fine if it's your own biases or preferences, but I think trying to pretend that the game does or should follow those preferences is where the problem exists.

But if the fighter has such an ability that reliable works whenever he wants, that he compell NPCs by speaking to do something they normally wouldn't do, that is mind control.

The fighter also has an ability that reliably heals himself back up using a limited resource that recharges on a long rest. Clearly Second Wind is a magical healing spell!

D&D is a fiction first game.
What you are describing is a mechanics first game, where the mechanics determine the narrative instead of just helping the DM to adjucate the player characters actions.

FWIW, D&D is neither a fiction first game nor a mechanics first game. It may claim to be fiction first, but it's an inconsistent mix. It actually has a LOT of mechanics first as part of its game. Falling damage in D&D, for example, is an example of mechanics first and not fiction first. The fiction is only pertinent in so far as the GM consults the mechanical table that determines how much fall damage the character takes on the basis of distance. The rest of the fiction, first or otherwise, doesn't matter to the consequences.

An example of falling damage in a more fiction first oriented game would be like in Fate or Blades in the Dark, where things like a broken foot are possible consequences of a fall that can impair the character and be used against them. But these are games where the consequences are meant to follow the established fiction.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You get one of those candy crush clones where you need to match 3 or more stones in order to fight monsters.

Okay.

What even is this. I've seen some reaches to put down other playstyles before, but this is a new kind of special.

How in the world is giving the player some narrative control and acknowledging that you're doing so turning the game into Candy Crush?

And further, what alchemy is happening that makes it not Candy Crush is you say it's magic while doing the exact same thing?

How is anyone supposed to take these argument seriously when they are so inherently inconsistent and couched on something as insulting and facile as calling the alternative Candy Crush, which is the latest version of the bad argumentation of calling the opposition WoW or Diablo or Superhero or Anime.?

 

[Vaalingrade]

It is a design that works and made 5e the best selling D&D edition ever, outpacing anything that came before it.

So said every previous D&D, ignoring everythign else it had going for it to assume Money equals Good. Just like the 5-Michelin star cuisine of Taco Bell.