D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[M_Natas]

For the record, we are talking about the fighter having an ability that emulates warriors taunting their enemies in the comparable genre fiction. If any of us are approaching that with honest good faith, we can recognize that none of that is mind controlling NPCs or bending the reality of the world. It's about creating a fighter that emulates the fiction for warriors.

But if the fighter has such an ability that reliable works whenever he wants, that he compell NPCs by speaking to do something they normally wouldn't do, that is mind control.
D&D is a fiction first game.
What you are describing is a mechanics first game, where the mechanics determine the narrative instead of just helping the DM to adjucate the player characters actions.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Let's try it again, again...
The latter 3 plus Cap have vanquished their foes with their martial prowess, both with unarmed combat and with their weapons and without having powers making them immortal within their settings.

So yeah, totally the latter 3 plus Cap!

D&D fighter: Whew..I'm dogged. Took down a 20 ft dragon, two trolls, a platoon of goblins, and a giant today with just this sword here. The dragon was took like.. just hacking and slashing away with him spewing acid all over me while he tried to slash me to ribbons with his enormous claws..probably took like 30 seconds there.

Robin Hood: Sounds like we had the same day.. I shot a couple..maybe even five human soldiers with my bow..from behind cover...a long way away.

D&D fighter:.....

 

[pemerton]

There are several things being conflated in this thread.

1. Desire for discrete mechanics versus GM rulings.
2. Desire for players/GMs to have the ability to always determine what their characters think and feel regardless of fictional circumstances.
3. Personal aesthetic tastes over what sorts of prowess a high-level martial character should possess.

If you want to express a preference in regard to 1 or 2, please do so. It's distinctly unhelpful to imply that games that rely on more discrete mechanics or where the system has a say in what characters think or feel must involve supernatural powers. It implies that those of us playing and running games where such techniques / mechanics are in effect are wrong about the underlying fiction of our games. Is that an argument anyone wishes to genuinely make?

And this too. I didn't post the bolded bit 100 times upthread, but I think I said it more than once!

 

[Campbell]

It's magic. I want a fighter that doesn't rely on magic.

It doesn't fit Oofta's aesthetic preference for what a fighter should be capable of. He doesn't want fighters that do not fit his specific idiosyncratic aesthetic preferences.

This is how I personally translate what you are saying. The ability in question is explicitly not magic. There are no incantations, no supplication of eldritch horrors, no prayers. They are just that damn good. You do not have to like the ability or wish to play in a game where that is something someone who is just that damn good can do but continuing to frame everything that falls outside of your specific aesthetic tastes as magic is decidedly unhelpful.

We can talk about how we want things to be, but insisting on using a framing that delegitimizes and misrepresents approaches to the game you do not care for does no one any good.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

But if the fighter has such an ability that reliable works whenever he wants, that he compell NPCs by speaking to do something they normally wouldn't do, that is mind control.
D&D is a fiction first game.
What you are describing is a mechanics first game, where the mechanics determine the narrative instead of just helping the DM to adjucate the player characters actions.

No they don't have that. It's entirely up to GM fiat and Mother May I and plz plz gm plz can I.

 

[Azzy]

Ah, come on. If you have a player facing rule that says "use (mundane) ability X to always (saving throw) get reaction y" and than as the DM decide it is not applicable for reasons you get a 40 page thread on EN worlds about that rule discussion.

Does ENWorld dictate how you play D&D? I didn't think so.

Like I pointed out, the DMG says "The D&D rules help you and the other players have a good time, but the rules aren’t in charge. You’re the DM, and you are in charge of the game." Does it need to be more explicit than that?

 

[Micah Sweet]

But if the fighter has such an ability that reliable works whenever he wants, that he compell NPCs by speaking to do something they normally wouldn't do, that is mind control.
D&D is a fiction first game.
What you are describing is a mechanics first game, where the mechanics determine the narrative instead of just helping the DM to adjucate the player characters actions.

To be fair, one version of D&D was a mechanics first game. But don't worry, the usual suspects will soon be here to remind us of it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

D&D fighter: Whew..I'm dogged. Took down a 20 ft dragon, two trolls, a platoon of goblins, and a giant today with just this sword here. The dragon was took like.. just hacking and slashing away with him spewing acid all over me while he tried to slash me to ribbons with his enormous claws..probably took like 30 seconds there.

Robin Hood: Sounds like we had the same day.. I shot a couple..maybe even five human soldiers with my bow..from behind cover...a long way away.

D&D fighter:.....

High level D&D fighters are ridiculous.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And this too. I didn't post the bolded bit 100 times upthread, but I think I said it more than once!

I don't think your fiction is wrong, but we  really don't play the same game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is how I personally translate what you are saying. The ability in question is explicitly not magic. There are no incantations, no supplication of eldritch horrors, no prayers. They are just that damn good. You do not have to like the ability or wish to play in a game where that is something someone who is just that damn good can do but continuing to frame everything that falls outside of your specific aesthetic tastes as magic is decidedly unhelpful.

We can talk about how we want things to be, but insisting on using a framing that delegitimizes and misrepresents approaches to the game you do not care for does no one any good.

Again, you are not playing the same game, similar names or not.