D&D (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Yaarel]

Every wizard can in theory learn the exact same spells given unlimited time, money, and resources. But no wizard does learn all spells. Instead most have an individual spell collection. Meanwhile every trickery domain cleric has the exact same spell list to prepare from.

The wizard and cleric are the two most generic spellcasting classes in 5e - but what makes them more generic than anyone else is different in the two cases.

• There is almost no difference between wizard subclasses (ignoring illusionists and dunomancers) but there's a probably wider range of variety between wizards as there is between bards or sorcerers of one subclass as the spells they actually have vary
• There is significant difference between cleric subclasses, but within any given cleric subclass there's less difference than between Champion Fighters (thanks to fighting styles, an extra feat, and fighter feats being more influential)

The Cleric domain spells are trivial − a ribbon.

The bulk of the Cleric spell slots are spent on whichever spells the player prefers, same as a Wizard.

They aren't "cultural approaches" when they aren't even vaguely connected to the culture and crop up again and again in unrelated cultures. They can arguably be called "personal approaches"

Yes, a Cleric build can be a "personal approach". But "typically" a Cleric build represents culturally sacred traditions, namely "ancient rites" and "formulaic prayers".

The Cleric is attuning a specific Outer Plane, and there are very different kinds of Cleric builds that can do it. Each kind of Cleric build is a different cultural approach to attune that plane.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Cleric domain spells are trivial − a ribbon.

The bulk of the Cleric spell slots are spent on whichever spells the player prefers, same as a Wizard.

The difference being that any cleric can take any other cleric's core prepared spell ist with one night's rest. It takes serious time, effort, and study (and some money and sources) for one wizard to copy another wizard's prepared spells unless they both netlisted.

If we ignore domain spells the wizard here is half way between cleric and sorcerer. Clerics can switch near trivially, wizards with a lot of work, and sorcerers basically can't unless they want to lock themselves out of switching back.

Yes, a Cleric build can be a "personal approach". But "typically" a Cleric build represents culturally sacred traditions, namely "ancient rites" and "formulaic prayers".

Literally nothing in the mechanics support this. And as I've shown which set of sacred prayers you use only matters for your domain

The Cleric is attuning a specific Outer Plane, and there are very different kinds of Cleric builds that can do it. Each kind of Cleric build is a different cultural approach to attune that plane.

That's like saying "each fighter build is a different cultural approach". I mean sure - but it doesn't mean that the culture is powering the fighter. Clerics are neither more nor less culturally influenced than fighters and are actively less culture based than wizards or bards.

 

[Yaarel]

The difference being that any cleric can take any other cleric's core prepared spell ist with one night's rest. It takes serious time, effort, and study (and some money and sources) for one wizard to copy another wizard's prepared spells unless they both netlisted.

Nevertheless, each player tend to prefer different spells resulting in different Cleric builds. Same as a Wizard.

(In any case, letting Clerics prepare any spell that exists in D&D seems like a fragile design. I would rather a Cleric know certain spells ahead of time, which they can then cast.)

If we ignore domain spells the wizard here is half way between cleric and sorcerer. Clerics can switch near trivially, wizards with a lot of work, and sorcerers basically can't unless they want to lock themselves out of switching back.

Literally nothing in the mechanics support this. And as I've shown which set of sacred prayers you use only matters for your domain

Having different builds represents different sacred traditions, which corresponds to different viewpoints, customs, and cultures. There are many paths to the mountain top.

That's like saying "each fighter build is a different cultural approach". I mean sure - but it doesn't mean that the culture is powering the fighter. Clerics are neither more nor less culturally influenced than fighters and are actively less culture based than wizards or bards.

How is a "fighting style" not a cultural approach?

 

[Yaarel]

@Neonchameleon

Heh, I think we "excursioned" enough about Clerics in a thread about Sorcerers.

In any case, the details seem enough to show the Cleric class has flavor that is distinct from Warlock, Wizard, Druid, and Sorcerer.

I will let you have the last comment if you want.

 

[Neonchameleon]

@Neonchameleon

Heh, I think we "excursioned" enough about Clerics in a thread about Sorcerers.

In any case, the details seem enough to show the Cleric class has flavor that is distinct from Warlock, Wizard, Druid, and Sorcerer.

I will let you have the last comment if you want.

As a final comment there may be different paths but it's the exact same mountain climbed the exact same way. And a fighting style is a cultural approach but it's powered by physics and biology, and there is a huge overlap between fighting styles of different largely distinct cultures. It's not culturally driven or powered in the same way music or theatre is.

 

[Stalker0]

To discourage hoarding and encourage people to actually use their abilities. If it's a choice between everyone blows their load early and only gets a little after that and everyone becomes a hoarder until they nova final boss fight the boss fight option is less fun both to get there and to fight.

There are better solutions of course.

There is a difference though between rewarding use and rewarding novas.

As we have already noted, an easy change is to have the sorc point come back whenever initiative starts (whether you are out of sorc points or not). So if you haven't used any sorc points, you get no benefit (bad hoarder!). If you have used your sorc points a little, you get a benefit. If you used a lot of sorc points, you get a benefit.

Why are we only rewarding the extreme case of blowing through every sorc point you have, rather than "I've used some but not all".

 

[Bill Zebub]

I had to read through the explanations for Wild Magic Surge and Tides of Chaos several times to make sense of them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

This bolded part reminds me of an incident that happened when i was younger. I had just finished off a carton of ice cream and my dad got mad saying, "That's it! I'm not buying ice cream anymore. All you kids ever do is eat it." Well, yeah. That's the point of buying food: so that we can eat it. Why are we being penalized for that? Are we supposed to just let it sit there and go bad?

Sorcerers aren't being rewarded for novaing all the time. They're being rewarded for using the tools at their disposal. What are they supposed to do, hoard their Spell Slots and Metamagic points for a rainy day? Heck, there was a lengthy argument in another thread about whether or not players not using all their Spell Slots was a wasted opportunity.

Maybe your dad meant you should not have eaten it all at once...
You know, you can buy some more food at one day and eat it over the coming weak.

This is also known as resource management...

That was one thing I really missed in 4e. Any encounter power not used by the end of combat was wasted. So all you did was spamming them.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Yes. Thematically this difference is as great as that between wizards and clerics. The thematic confusion is sorcerer vs wizard and cleric vs warlock. Arguably also nature cleric vs druid.

Mechanically, of course, the Warlock is the one furthest from anyone else. And as I've said thematically the wizard is a sorcerer subclass - and the wizard subclasses are all very meh and none of them really inspire people that I've seen. Even bladesinger.

Yeah I don't buy that, the flavour and function of Sorcerer and Wizard are increasingly different.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah I don't buy that, the flavour and function of Sorcerer and Wizard are increasingly different.

That's because they spent years being almost indistinguishable from each other - and the only "moving further" they have done is that the sorcerer has spread its wings covering a wider area while the wizard is basically unchanged.