D&D (2024) Sorcerer (Playtest 7)

[Ruin Explorer]

Am I the only one who sees Wizards and Sorcerers as very different?

A Wizard is a skill sets you learn and thru education and study and hard work.

A Sorcerer is kin to innately magical monsters and races, it's like innate racial magics, but rit large and much deeper.

It's a distinction without a difference in practice because of the spell lists and the fact their history. It's a meaningless distinction to anyone not pretty seriously in D&D. Further, it's not at all well-conveyed by the class designs, particularly as Wizards are so spartan.

That's the problem.

DND Next distinguished it into something else, and it was pretty well-regarded, but WotC reverted to the default dull 3.XE Sorcerer without asking anyone.

Now 2024 is trying to distinguish it again into something a bit different, but we'll see if that actually gets allowed to happen.

 

[Remathilis]

Gee. It's almost as though the warlock and sorcerer both being charisma spell-casting classes that both gain their powers through otherworldly sources interfering with their life is too similar a concept and they should arguably have been one class in the first place with the player selecting if their power came from a pact they made themselves or bloodline from an ancestor as fluff. On second thought, no. That would be crazy!

Considering that they insist on keeping pact magic, I'm all in favor of killing the warlock and letting the sorcerer take it's stuff.

 

[Gorck]

I have never understood this myself. Why does the system reward players for just blowing their loads and novaing all the time? Why does a sorc need to be completely spend to get a sorc point, is it really so broken to just give them a sorc point back when initiative is rolled?

This bolded part reminds me of an incident that happened when i was younger. I had just finished off a carton of ice cream and my dad got mad saying, "That's it! I'm not buying ice cream anymore. All you kids ever do is eat it." Well, yeah. That's the point of buying food: so that we can eat it. Why are we being penalized for that? Are we supposed to just let it sit there and go bad?

Sorcerers aren't being rewarded for novaing all the time. They're being rewarded for using the tools at their disposal. What are they supposed to do, hoard their Spell Slots and Metamagic points for a rainy day? Heck, there was a lengthy argument in another thread about whether or not players not using all their Spell Slots was a wasted opportunity.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

This bolded part reminds me of an incident that happened when i was younger. I had just finished off a carton of ice cream and my dad got mad saying, "That's it! I'm not buying ice cream anymore. All you kids ever do is eat it." Well, yeah. That's the point of buying food: so that we can eat it. Why are we being penalized for that? Are we supposed to just let it sit there and go bad?

Sorcerers aren't being rewarded for novaing all the time. They're being rewarded for using the tools at their disposal. What are they supposed to do, hoard their Spell Slots and Metamagic points for a rainy day? Heck, there was a lengthy argument in another thread about whether or not players not using all their Spell Slots was a wasted opportunity.

I think discouraging hoarding is actually part of the point with this feature.

Although I'll point out for the Psionic Soul Sorcerer 1 point is all it takes to cast one of their 1st level bonus spells. Same with the Clockwork.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I have never understood this myself. Why does the system reward players for just blowing their loads and novaing all the time? Why does a sorc need to be completely spend to get a sorc point, is it really so broken to just give them a sorc point back when initiative is rolled?

To discourage hoarding and encourage people to actually use their abilities. If it's a choice between everyone blows their load early and only gets a little after that and everyone becomes a hoarder until they nova final boss fight the boss fight option is less fun both to get there and to fight.

There are better solutions of course.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

All of the Sorcerer subclasses incarnate planar energies.

Wild ‹ Plane of Elemental Chaos
Draconic ‹ Material Plane
Clockwork ‹ Lawful Neutral Plane of Mechanus
Aberrant ‹ Farrealm Plane

Potentially, any plane can be the source of a sorcerous subclass.


Note, the Sorcerer differs from the Warlock. The Sorcerer is a manifestation of the planar energy itself. The Warlock makes a pact with an entity who inhabits a plane.


Bodily incarnating a plane is the essence of the Sorcerer class identity.

I've been thinking about how sorcerer and warlock subclass themes interact for a while, and there is definitely still some lingering holdout of 'ancestor was a magic creature' in the subclass. Draconic being the most notable with the whole 'ancestor was a dragon' (or the description actually calling out 'making a pact with a dragon' thing).

I do think it would be a good idea to move sorcerer away from the magic creature/bloodline theme altogether, in order to make the differences with warlock more obvious.

 

[Vael]

I would loosen the restriction on recharge to if the Sorcerer has less than half of their sorcery points remaining. Sure, it might mean the odd "I have one more than half my Sorcery Points, quick I'll make a spell slot", but it's such a trickle of points, and Innate Sorcery at level 7 will really push the Sorcerer to burn their points.

 

[Yaarel]

I've been thinking about how sorcerer and warlock subclass themes interact for a while, and there is definitely still some lingering holdout of 'ancestor was a magic creature' in the subclass. Draconic being the most notable with the whole 'ancestor was a dragon' (or the description actually calling out 'making a pact with a dragon' thing).

I do think it would be a good idea to move sorcerer away from the magic creature/bloodline theme altogether, in order to make the differences with warlock more obvious.

The truth is, the lore for a Sorcerer and the lore for a Warlock are virtually identical. It is possible for a character to make a pact with a Dragon to become a Draconic Sorcerer, and it is possible for a Warlock to inherit the pact from an ancestor who made it.

Sorcerer and Warlock can easily be the same class − and many say they should be.


That said. The main theme of the Sorcerer is the magic is "innate". So it is easier for the lore for the Sorcerer to "inherit" it. On the other hand, if the Warlock is magically altered by the pact − which makes the most sense since it is in lieu of studying − then the Warlock would also be casting spells "innately" from that point onward.

Ultimately, I want the Wizard character to also be able to cast spells innately. The Wand is an option, but innate should be an option as well. Cantrips especially can convey the flavor of innate magic.


In 3e the Sorcerer was mainly the only class that was a "non-vancian" spellcaster. But in 4e and 5e, there are no "vancian" casters, so the Sorcerer has lacked a reason to exist as a class.

For fans who love the Sorcerer class, the main appealing connotations are innate spellcasting − somewhat like X-Men superpowers − and aggressive combat magic. Since all classes need to contribute comparably to combat and since "innate" belongs to too many character concepts, 5e lacks a way to express these concepts as distinctively Sorcerer.


As it turns out, the 5e Sorcerer is evolving in a way that a noticeable characteristic is planar magic. It seems to me, the Sorcerer should be all about planar magic, affinity with a specific plane, the ability to planeshift back-and-forth with that plane, and relationships with the various creatures of that plane, is a distinctive way to flavor the identity of the Sorcerer class.

Then the Warlock pacts are more about a relationship with an individual creature.

Even here, the Warlock and Sorcerer can easily be the same class mechanically. But each has its own fan base who would feel a loss if they merged.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

The truth is, the lore for a Sorcerer and the lore for a Warlock are virtually identical. It is possible for a character to make a pact with a Dragon to become a Draconic Sorcerer, and it is possible for a Warlock to inherit the pact from an ancestor who made it.

Sorcerer and Warlock can easily be the same class − and many say they should be.

One thing I like the theme of for the sorcerer is becoming more like the origin creature for your bloodline. However it does a spectacularly bad job of that in game.

But honestly, I feel like warlock should move towards that and sorcerer away from it. Sorcerer has less subclass impact than warlock, and combined with being a squishy full caster the class just isn't equipped to fulfil that fantasy archetype.

As warlock gains a lot more from its subclass, and has options to push both more into magic and more into martial, it's much more suited to embody playing like magical creatures such as dragons, liches, celestials, and giants.

 

[Yaarel]

One thing I like the theme of for the sorcerer is becoming more like the origin creature for your bloodline. However it does a spectacularly bad job of that in game.

I know the Sorcerer can be Draconic, with the "lineage" from an individual Dragon. But even here, I view this as "planar". With the lore of the "First World", both Dragons and Giants are fundamental aspects of the Material Plane. So I view Draconic and potentially Giant as planar affinity with the Material Plane.

Likewise, the Aberrant Sorcerer has no relationship with any specific Aberrant creature. The affinity is with the plane of Farrealm itself, its ambient energies.

By contrast, the Warlock "pact" is with a specific creature.

But honestly, I feel like warlock should move towards that and sorcerer away from it. Sorcerer has less subclass impact than warlock, and combined with being a squishy full caster the class just isn't equipped to fulfil that fantasy archetype.

There could be spells that grant melee competence.

But yeah, the Warlock class has more features that can represent transmogrifying into a specific creature type and species.

As warlock gains a lot more from its subclass, and has options to push both more into magic and more into martial, it's much more suited to embody playing like magical creatures such as dragons, liches, celestials, and giants.

Yeah.


This can be a salient distinction.
• Sorcerer = planeshifting
• Warlock = shapeshifting