D&D 5E Do you allow Bladesingers to cast Mending, Shillelagh or Magic Stone as part of the attack action?

[TheSword]

Artificer pets. "If the mending spell is cast on it, it regains 2d6 hit points. "

Ok. Seems a bit of a corner case and not sure being able to heal someone else’s pet 2d6 is worth giving up an attack at 7th level onwards but fair enough.

I personally wouldn’t allow mending as I said in my post, but I can see how it could be argued. It will come down to a table decision.

 

[TheSword]

I think this reasoning is valid. The Bladesinger ability does not specifically mention changing the casting time of cantrips, so it doesn't work with cantrips that do not have casting time of one action.

As for magic stone, the cantrip only enchants the stones, throwing them is a separate action*. If you have extra attack(2) you can throw 2 magic stones. You can throw another if you are hasted. You still need to have made them first with a bonus action, but that doesn't have to be in the same round.

*This also means there is no point quickening magic stone if a sorcerer where to acquire the spell, and it can't be twinned.

I see a lot of confusion on other forums about this spell where they think it includes one stone throw.

It seems like the OP’s table has the same misunderstanding.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Ok. Seems a bit of a corner case and not sure being able to heal someone else’s pet

the OP is fond of multiclass combos.

It seems like the OP’s table has the same misunderstanding.

The text seems clear enough to me.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

That the bladesinger rule doesn't say that the cantrip must have a casting time of 1 action is clearly an oversight. I wouldn't allow it.

Edit: looking closer at the casting time rules, while RAW it may be possible for a bladesinger to cast Mending as part of an attack, there's nothing in the bladesinger ability that modifies the 1 minute casting time.

Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so. If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.

It says you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, but not that it has to be the Cast A Spell action. So to cast Mending a Bladesinger could take the Attack action each round for 10 rounds, and spend one attack each of those rounds on casting Mending. I don't think this is an effective strategy in combat, except in a specific scenario where the PCs have to repair the McGuffin in the middle of a fight before all hell breaks loose.

So I think I'm going to change my previous position and say that I would allow the Bladesinger to cast any cantrip they know as part of an attack action, since I'm not really seeing any real potential for abuse. Trading an attack for a bonus action spell seems fair to me.

 

[Blue]

The Bladesinger general rule is a variation on the ability to cast multiple spells. There's no specific exemption in the Bladesinger rule to allow longer than 1 action cantrips.
It specifically allows cantrips. It does not specifically exempt longer than 1 action cantrips.

Can you pooint out where it specifically allows cantrips that take 1 action to cast.

Either "cast a cantrip" includes all cantrips, or if it doesn't include cantrips based on casting time, it would need to specify either ones allowed or ones not allowed. The character does not have an action available to cast a cantrip since they took the Attack action - please show with the same level of demanded vigor: a specific quote - why you think they can cast a 1 action cantrip and why not any other cantrip.

Nothing at alll is different about a 1 action vs. 1 minute vs. bonus action casting time when if comes to spending an attack to cast an action.

 

[billd91]

Can you pooint out where it specifically allows cantrips that take 1 action to cast.

Either "cast a cantrip" includes all cantrips, or if it doesn't include cantrips based on casting time, it would need to specify either ones allowed or ones not allowed. The character does not have an action available to cast a cantrip since they took the Attack action - please show with the same level of demanded vigor: a specific quote - why you think they can cast a 1 action cantrip and why not any other cantrip.

OR it was worded assuming that cantrips take an action to cast and missed the minimal exception of the mending cantrip taking a minute to cast - easy enough to do considering the proportion of cantrips that are one action to cast (mending is literally the one cantrip I can find that takes more than 1 action to cast).
It's certainly not unreasonable to exclude any cantrip that takes more than 1 action to cast from this feature. It's not like any cantrip that would do so would be a combat spell and thus would be highly unlikely to be cast anyway.

 

[Maxperson]

Can you pooint out where it specifically allows cantrips that take 1 action to cast.

That's the standard casting time for a cantrip. Some are bonus actions and at least one is longer than 1 action, but those are specific beats general versions of cantrips. The ability does not specifically quicken cantrips, so it has no ability to take a 1 minute casting and reduce it to part of an action.

Either "cast a cantrip" includes all cantrips, or if it doesn't include cantrips based on casting time, it would need to specify either ones allowed or ones not allowed.

No. This is a False Dichotomy. In addition to not specifying that it makes an exception for longer casting times than normal, it also specifies that it's part of the attack, so you need to be attacking with the cantrip. The attack action specifies that you are making an attack on a target, so a spell cast using the Bladesinger ability as part of that attack must also attack the target. Mending fails on that front as well.

Nothing at alll is different about a 1 action vs. 1 minute vs. bonus action casting time when if comes to spending an attack to cast an action.

Then the next time I want to cast lightning bolt as a bonus action I'll be sure to tell the DM that nothing is different about 1 action vs. 1 minute vs. bonus action. Since nothing is different, 1 action = 1 bonus action and I can do that, right?

An attack takes 1 action of time. The ability allows you to sub a cantrip in for your extra attack as part of that 1 action. Anything longer than 1 action cannot by definition take 1 action to do unless something specifically changes the casting time such as the Sorcerer's Quicken Spell ability. Since 1 minute is in fact much different from 1 action, it can't be used as part of a single action without a very explicit exception.

 

[ECMO3]

It does not. Nowhere in there is the phrase, "this includes cantrips with longer than 1 action casting times" or "This includes mending."

Itdoesn't say cantrips with a casting time of one action either. There is nothing about casting time in the wording, it just says "your cantrips"

Those would be examples of SPECIFIC beats general.

The rule specifically allows you to cast "your cantrips" with no limitations or qualifications

It specifically allows cantrips. It does not specifically exempt longer than 1 action cantrips.

It does not specifically allow cantrips with 1 action either, and cantrips with 1 action casting time can not be cast as part of an attack under the general rules for casting spells.

Why would you think the casting time would matter? It does not say you can cast Cantrips with a time of one action either.

If I am to agree with your interpretation then I can't cast any cantrips as all as part of the attack action, which means the ability makes no sense.

 

[ECMO3]

That's the standard casting time for a cantrip.

EXACTLY. An action is the standard casting time for most cantrips, not part of an attack action. This is the whole point!

This rule specifically OVERIDES the casting time for "your cantrips".

An attack takes 1 action of time.

You can not cast a spell with an attack action according to the general rules, so this is irrelevant. Further with extra attack an attack takes half an action, not a full action, so yes to do this with extra attack you MUST change the amount of time the casting takes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The Bladesinger version of extra attack lets the Bladesinger cast a cantrip as part of an attack:

Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

There is nothing in there saying the Cantrip has to have a casting time of 1 action, so RAW this works.

RAI I think mending is not intended to work this way.

Magic Stone and Shillelagh are not Wizard spells, but a Wizard could have them easily through a multiclass or feat. Not sure about RAI here.

Finally the most abuse to this comes from a medium armor XBE-Sharpshooter-Hexblade-Bladesinger who dumps intelligence to 13 and makes two Charisma-based sharpshooter attacks followed by an eldritch blast while having Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Misty Step, Tiny Hut and a bunch of rituals as a Wizard at her disposal. Despite being a powergaming move, I think this is both clearly RAW and RAI.

What do you do at your table?

I like it. Attacking with a hammer while casting mending turns you into Fixit Felix!