D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Micah Sweet]

I think that's more a problem with the fanbase. WotC seem to want to make it viable, but they have to contend with what the surveyors feels right. They could have just gone "this is what you're going get, lump it" - but they want a version people will actually want to use.

Personally, I suspect no small percentage of those responding to the surveys are doing so via white room hot takes rather than actually taking the class out for a spin and coming back to comment on how it actually plays. No proof, just a feeling.

My point is that, since fighters are so popular, just about anything WotC makes and slaps the fighter label on will get played a lot, regardless of satisfaction level. WotC really doesn't have much motivation to make a better fighter. That's why I'll always suggest people go elsewhere.

 

[Mort]

Okay. So what? Why is it an issue? The fighter can’t fly either. And again, charm person sucks compared to being decent at persuasion.

I’m definitely not. I don’t care if fighters have a special fighter feature that makes them good at social challenges because they’re a fighter. They can be good at them, that is all that matters. If a fighter player wants to be especially good, there are subclass options and feats.

Why is that a problem? Explain.


What’s more, why are we having this conversation as if Only the 2014 phb exists? As if a new PHB with broader options for fighters in it won’t be out next year?

How does this even relate to the OP?

If we're going to talk about the most recent playtest:

The fighter got some decent extra options for use of second wind (adding it to ability checks is directly relevant here) and more uses of it. This is actually a bigger step forward than in the past, and will hopefully make it into the actual rule set.

But the wizard got Memorize spell - take 1 minute to prepare a spell you don't already have prepared (which is then prepared until you swap it out for another spell with this feature). This cranks the wizards Utility to 11 and basically means the wizard has any spell in his arsenal ready at a moments notice - a huge boon for the exploration and social interaction pillars. Much as I think this feature is very "wizardly" I think it's too much and hope they tone it down a bit.

 

[Minigiant]

What is this based on now?

There is only 5e fighter but at least a dozen types of fighter that D&D fans want.

Which wouldn't be so bad if you could adjust the fighter but the fighter is so simple and has such low margin of power compared to other classes that it is difficult to homebrew new warrior classes without over shadowing the fighter. It takes a lot of knowledge and skill to do it. More than what 99.999% of the community has.

 

[Minigiant]

Prove it.

The 2013 playtest.

citation needed

The 2013 playtest.

The 5e Fighter is what the plurality of 5e fans want in a fighter. It however isn't what the majority of of 5e fans want. There are possibly 3-6 different types of nonmagical warrior class people want.

This is why almost all the major 3PPs who produce player content has a fighter variant, a new warrior class, or a fighter subclass that leans on of the knobs heavy in one direction. Because they all know there is a market. Even WOTC is sorta doing it.

Professional game designers usually can design within the small parameters 5e classes allow. Random DMs cannot.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The 2013 playtest.

That's not a citation. That's an assertion. Because-

1. You don't actually supply any data; and
2. You don't know what the internal numbers and deliberations were; and most importantly
3. The people who were part of the playtest were not "fans" of 5e (because it was a playtest, not the final game). They were a subset of players at that time, and they are a miniscule amount of the people playing 5e currently!

The 5e Fighter is what the plurality of 5e fans want in a fighter. It however isn't what the majority of of 5e fans want. There are possibly 3-6 different types of nonmagical warrior class people want.

Again, citation needed. Do you have any actual data, surveys, numbers? Or is this just an assertion?

In addition, there are already three non-magical warriors; the fighter, the barbarian, and the monk. So if you're expanding the ambit of your idea to warriors, you also have to include those archetypes as well.

This is why almost all the major 3PPs who produce player content has a fighter variant, a new warrior class, or a fighter subclass that leans on of the knobs heavy in one direction. Because they all know there is a market. Even WOTC is sorta doing it.

Um, when a 3PP makes any player content, they are going to make a variant of the already-existing class. Because that is, by definition, what 3PP variants are. They aren't going to publish the same thing that is already published by WoTC.


Look, I get it. We all think that our own preferences are more universal than they actually are. But just because you want something, doesn't mean that either (a) it's going to happen, or (b) it's what everyone else wants.

I want Bards excised from D&D with extreme prejudice. I want spellcasters nerfed so hard, they won't even see the next nerf hitting them. I want much slower healing ("gritty realism"). I want WoTC to just put out a Greyhawk supplement already. I want them to release a real psionic class, maybe based off the last decent iteration of the Mystic.

There's a lot of things I want, but I don't presume to speak for the D&D community or believe that my preferences are the same as all of the D&D community (or even the majority of it). To the extent I want things that WoTC isn't providing, I can either-
1. Do nothing.
2. Use 3PP.
3. Homebrew / houserrule / optional rule my way around it.

But I don't insist that my preferences are universal. As I have written before, some people like wuxia fighters that leap hundreds of feet in the air and smite titans in their face with their 20' long swords, and other people want grounded and realistic martial characters. There's no wrong answer.

 

[Oofta]

He highest satisfaction class in the playtest was Rogue.

Fighter was most popular but a loud percentage of the fanbase was unsatisfied with every version of it.

That's why the 2013 playtest fighter was revised from the ground up at least 5 times.

It is literally the Psions problem.

We ended up with the fighter that we have because they listened to feedback. Fighter is now the most popular class. The people who are unsatisfied may be vocal but by all objective measures they seem to be a small minority.

 

[Minigiant]

Look, I get it. We all think that our own preferences are more universal than they actually are. But just because you want something, doesn't mean that either (a) it's going to happen, or (b) it's what everyone else wants

Ain't my personal preference.

What I want will never be part of D&D.

My point is these conversations here, other forums, social media, podcasts, video platforms and other forms of media where it can be read, watched or heard exist for a reason.

These topics wouldn't crop up everywhere over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.. if there was no meat.

 

[Scribe]

These topics wouldn't crop up everywhere over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.. if there was no meat.

Sure they would, it only takes 1.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

My point is these conversations here, other forums, social media, podcasts, video platforms and other forms of media where it can be read, watched or heard exist for a reason.

These topics wouldn't crop up everywhere over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.. if there was no meat.

Or, you know, the same people bring up the same points in order to argue with the same people. Doesn't mean that this is something that the vast majority of people care about.

Heck, based on the arguments on this forum, a person might be confused and think that the Forge is something that gets talked about all the time at D&D tables, whereas if you go to tables and talk to players and ask them about it, they'll respond, "Uh, is that where the breast plate and swords get made?"

Or, you know, take the Warlord. I've never heard an actual player at any table demand to play one, and yet ... or, for that matter, the Champion. I've seen tons of Champions in actual play, but it you believe conversations here, only NOOBS that need to GIT GUD would ever choose that class.

 

[Minigiant]

We ended up with the fighter that we have because they listened to feedback. Fighter is now the most popular class. The people who are unsatisfied may be vocal but by all objective measures they seem to be a small minority.

There is no proof it is a small minority.

The 2013 fighter playtest process mirrored the Psions/Mystic playtest. There was a version that was simplier.There was a version that gave fighter core noncombat features. There was severals versions that had maneuvers core. Heck Crawford even wanted to make maneuvers core in the 2024 but halted only to preserve the Champion fighter simplicity and have battlemaster be backwards compatible.

The main difference is WOTC could not scrap the fighter because no option reached majority. They were forced to print the fighter.