D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Tony Vargas]

For me, this is a "whataboutism" approach - the implication being that if I don't treat two items exactly the same, then the reasoning on one of them is somehow faulty, and my analysis suspect.

Double standards are disquieting, yes. Especially when applied to two closely-comparable things. Like classes both appearing in a prior-edition PH1, meant to be capable of providing some similar contributions to a D&D party. True, the Warlord and Cleric schticks do not have strictly equal time in Genre. But, the Warlord's things are more prevalent.

I am more than happy to note that the specific combat timescale actions that many D&D classes are known for aren't great representations of fantasy literature. I know Merlin and Gandalf don't throw around multiple fireballs in a minute, and I'm cool with that. I don't try to use fast fireballs as a trope, or combat healing as a trope, to justify wizards and clerics. So, there's no mismatch in my logic.

..ah... there might be... if you don't consider genre tropes something that justifies a class in D&D, why not respond with that, instead of "but the genre trope in question isn't continuous, moment-by-moment" ? Something like, "D&D simply doesn't model the fantasy genre, clerical healing is a staple of D&D, it's rare in genre, fireballs are rarely tossed out one after another, in genre, outside of parodies, like Monty Python and the Holy Grail." ...and, if you don't see it as a reason to include it, I suppose there's no similar reason in your estimation to exclude it...

But that is interesting, how do you justify classes in a Fantasy game, if not by looking for archetypes in the broader Fantasy genre?
Like Clerics, well, existing, and wizards being Vancian and both being OP compared to the Fighter, but a new non-caster class being OP compared to the fighter is a bridge too far? That kinda thing?

Or is it simply as, they existed in D&D at some point in the past prior to 2008, they don't need to be questioned?
LFQW then, martial/caster gap, now, c'est la D&D, ?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The big question is why it doesn't. Because I agree that you can get the same sort of characters without snapping the game. But without Inspiring Word recovering hp and bringing people back to the fight you don't have it.

In 5e "morale boosts" tend to be represented by temporary HP, so it would be inconsistent for warlords' morale boost to work differently. And I don't see why it should. Yes, you cannot stabilise unconscious, dying people by shouting at them. And that seems perfectly fine to me.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think if you added a new use if superiority dice. Either they function as cure spells or add to healing when one spends a hit dice.

My solution is simple.

Rally: Target may spend a hit die. If they do they recover the hit die plus your superiority die worth of hit points. If not they recover 1hp

Inspiring Word never provided magical healing. It allowed the target to dig deep and spend their own healing surges at a bonus. The magical healing in 4e (like Cure Wounds) was surgeless.

 

[Zardnaar]

Double standards are disquieting, yes. Especially when applied to two closely-comparable things. Like classes both appearing in a prior-edition PH1, meant to be capable of providing some similar contributions to a D&D party. True, the Warlord and Cleric schticks do not have strictly equal time in Genre. But, the Warlord's things are more prevalent.

Interesting, how do you justify them. Y'know. Existing. Being OP compared to the Fighter. That kinda thing?

Or is it simply as, they existed in D&D at some point in the past prior to 2008, they don't need to be questioned?
LFQW then, martial/caster gap, now, c'est la D&D, ?

More you can't really duplicate a 4E warlord in 5E. We all know why it's gone. You can approximate one in 5E easy enough espicially with tashas or order cleric dip.

 

[Zardnaar]

My solution is simple.

Rally: Target may spend a hit die. If they do they recover the hit die plus your superiority die worth of hit points. If not they recover 1hp

Inspiring Word never provided magical healing. It allowed the target to dig deep and spend their own healing surges at a bonus. The magical healing in 4e (like Cure Wounds) was surgeless.

It scales very badly though. That's a big problem I've had crunching it out in previous attempts.

Bard dice also gives one ideas for subclasses

 

[Neonchameleon]

In 5e "morale boosts" tend to be represented by temporary HP, so it would be inconsistent for warlords' morale boost to work differently. And I don't see why it should. Yes, you cannot stabilise unconscious, dying people by shouting at them. And that seems perfectly fine to me.

Then you don't have a functional warlord able to do its job.

And in real life and all over the place in fiction you have people shouting or screaming at people to get back on their feet.

Inspiration shouldn't be using the forcefield mechanics. It's not what you need in advance to make sure there are no consequences - it's what you need when the chips are down. 5e made a bad call and One D&D should reverse it.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Then you don't have a functional warlord able to do its job.

No. You just don't have one that works exactly the way you want.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It scales very badly though. That's a big problem I've had crunching it out in previous attempts.

The thing is that only the last hit point truly matters. The effect of 0->1 is greater than absolutely anything else.

Rally is a superiority dice + Cha mod which scales little differently.

Bard dice also gives one ideas for subclasses

Yup

 

[Minigiant]

My solution is simple.

Rally: Target may spend a hit die. If they do they recover the hit die plus your superiority die worth of hit points. If not they recover 1hp

Inspiring Word never provided magical healing. It allowed the target to dig deep and spend their own healing surges at a bonus. The magical healing in 4e (like Cure Wounds) was surgeless.

I'd keep Rally add your version of Rally as Inspiring Word.

It scales very badly though. That's a big problem I've had crunching it out in previous attempts.

Bard dice also gives one ideas for subclasses

That's because the dice are way too few.
Frequency is the biggest problem. It's like a wizard who has 4 slots at level 5. A warlock without EB and cantrips.

 

[Tony Vargas]

More you can't really duplicate a 4E warlord in 5E.

It's like deja-vu, all over again:

asserted

You would pretty much have to write your own phb for a 4E style warlord. The basic concept works but duplicating the 4E version of said concept doesn't.

agreed

Nod. 5e contracted design space around melee, and balanced around DPR, with most martials getting that DPR scaling via Extra Attack, the Rogue being odd duck out. That makes granting a single attack all but non-scalling, unless the grantee is a well-done Rogue with CA. Granting an Action would scale for everyone, tho, and as Keanu-Reaves-saying-"Whoa" as that may seem, the most potent use of it would, realistically, probably be letting someone cast an additional spell in the round - something simply playing an additional caster would duplicate... in addition, of course, to adding another full slate of spell slots to the party's resources.

And, well, I didn't say it that long ago:

tied back to the topic

Unfortunately for anyone trying to add a Warlord to 5e, the support-capable classes are, well, the Paladin (as a support character, most notable for its aura), and multiple full-casters (Bard, Cleric, Druid, the odd sub-class of other full casters). The Paladin is also, in 4e terms, a striker and as close as 5e comes to a defender, in addition to a leader. The full casters are Controllers powerful beyond the dreams of 4e controllers, non-combat problem-solvers, and so forth.

And, we're back in the crab-bucket. A faithful 'port of the 4e Warlord would be a lethal trap for any party that relied on it as their only support character, far too weak and limited to take the place of a Bard, Cleric or Druid. At the same time, it would leave every other martial character in the dust (except, if done right, in terms of DPR). It falls right into the wide & bottomless abyss of the martial/caster gap.