D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

[Minigiant]

Differnt from what? In either system the GM can choose the DC they feel appropriate

Bard roll Persuasion vs DC15 for one success
Fighter rolls History vs DC 10 for advantage on next player

Again, how?

What does this mean?

How?

You don't know what a 4e skill challenges is then

 

[FrozenNorth]

It does sound like a fun character.

If I may introduce you to my character to prove a point: My character right now is a half-orc champion, level 7. Abilities are as follows: str 16; dex 12; con 14; int 12; wis 12; cha 12. We started with a feat, so I used my level 4 feat to add skills. I now have: athletics, deception, insight, intimidation, investigation, sleight of hand, and stealth. (He is an urban bounty hunter, so I generally make sure the skills match the background and history.) My fighter kicks butt in combat and delivers the second highest damage at our table of five players. Some nights he is at the top. Dual wield, two weapon fighting, a couple magic blades, etc. Savage attack and orcish fury in the mix of improved crit. Pow!

It seems you are happy having given up two ASIs and a +2 to broaden your character. It seems that even so, your character deals an acceptable level of damage for you.

My question is: does your character play like the skill specialist your investment in skills reflects?

Based on what you’ve written, your character is in a 5-person party and has;

• +6 in Athletics;
• + 4 in Deception;
• +4 in Intimidation;
• +4 in Insight;
• +4 in Investigation;
• +4 in Sleight of Hand;
• +4 in Stealth.

So, in your party of 5 players, how many:

• have an equal or higher Athletics?
• have an equal or higher Deception?
• have an equal or higher Intimidation?
• have an equal or higher Investigation?
• have an equal or higher Insight?
• have an equal or higher Stealth?
• have an equal or higher Sleight of hand?

A person can be happy playing virtually any character. But it seems clear that people who like playing fighters are asked to accept much greater restrictions in how they build their characters than other classes.

Fighters built for combat will be fine. Fighters built for anything else will struggle.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

No I'm saying wizard should eat sorcerer.

 

[Minigiant]

I regularly set up challenges where everyone needs to roll. It's not like there's anything forbidding it. In other cases multiple people need to use the same or related skills. I think they should, and hopefully will, talk about this more in the 2024 DMG but there's no inherent restriction in the game.

If the group is okay with one person being the go to guy, that's fine. In that case, you don't need anyone else good at that one thing and having multiple people good at the same thing adds no value to the group. Of course just because one person is rolling the die, it doesn't mean others aren't contributing or participating meaningfully in any game I've played. There's planning, deciding what direction to take, assisting in persuasion checks, RP, discussing what just happened and who they should trust, etc..

But if you run a game where one person can always be the person rolling for skill X, why does it matter if the fighter can't compete with the hypothetical bard*? If the bard is even one point above everyone else in the party then based on the other things people have said, that PC that comes in second place can't even compete. So giving the fighter anything short of an ability that surpasses the bard's ability, who's supposed to be the guy good at this stuff, is just a waste of time.

It's not an issue with the structure of the game if the DM doesn't ensure that multiple people share the spotlight if they want it.

* I rarely see people playing bards. I've seen two that I remember and one was by a guy that went through characters like tissue paper.

If the fighter player and the monk player wants to be helpful in a social encounter but they have a bard with +10, how do you handle it?

 

[Neonchameleon]

There are group checks in 5e. That's pretty similar to skill challenge.

It's pretty similar to skill challenges done in literally the most boring way possible. In fact I'm not sure that it's possible to be that boring within the rules of 4e.

A skill challenge is trying to deal with a complex task, and part of the point is that everyone brings their own thing and they work out how to work together. And that the experts take on the hardest parts, with there being an intentional range of DCs being used. The final version of the skill challenge rules IIRC means that there had to be a range of difficulties.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If the fighter player and the monk player wants to be helpful in a social encounter but they have a bard with +10, how do you handle it?

Have a Group Check (5e retained those from 4e, unlike Skill Challenges) for the whole party to be 'on their best behavior' with a low DC, like 10 - at, really, any level, because BA, and you are downright likely to have one or more untrained 8 CHA PCs in the party (because you want to run a social encounter that includes everyone, and no plan survives contact with the players), - and then the Bard speaks for them on the topic at a higher DC. The group check gives him disadvantage if it fails.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If the fighter player and the monk player wants to be helpful in a social encounter but they have a bard with +10, how do you handle it?

Since I've seen 'buy and use mundane equipment seriously put forward as a solution to fighters failing at exploration, for social, maybe the fighter buys a top hat and a monocle? and that works somehow?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I'm sure I remember something like a +2/-2 for proper/improvised equipment in some edition or other.

 

[Oofta]

If the fighter player and the monk player wants to be helpful in a social encounter but they have a bard with +10, how do you handle it?

They can assist, they can contribute arguments to the conversation (points raised affect the target DC) perhaps for whatever reason the bard isn't the best person to do the talking or the person they're talking to wants to hear from more than one person. If Captain @Snarf Zagyg has arrested the bard and sentenced them to hanging, someone else may have to take on the persuasion roll. After all, I'm sure they'll want the bard executed set free.

There's playing good persuasive cop and bad intimidating cop to grant advantage, there's times when the party is split, other times the bard has been beaten into unconsciousness. Most of the time the bard decided to stay home and do gigs at the tavern because in 99% of the games I've played there is no bard.

I could continue. Oh, and not every out of combat challenge boils down to a persuasion check. In my experience people who want to participate and are interested in out of combat challenges find a way to participate, frequently by doing something other than rolling a D20.

In addition, sky high proficiency bonuses are almost always overkill.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

If Captain @Snarf Zagyg has arrested the bard and sentenced them to hanging, someone else may have to take on the persuasion roll.

Arrest? ARREST?

I have my orders.