What is a "Narrative Mechanic"?

[Pedantic]

The most immersive games I have ever played are what has been more recently labelled "FKR"!

(Our label for them is "diceless RPG" because those we play use a mixture of drama and karma, not fortune.)

We're doing immersion again? That mostly just leads to a lot of subjective statements that could just as easily be read "I had the most memorable time when..." or "I had the most fun playing..."

I offered a mechanical understanding of immersion here:

[...] Immersion is resolved at the level of player decision making, and decisions are more or less immersive the less space there is between the analysis of the character being portrayed and the analysis of the player making decisions for them. You can decrease the level of possible immersion a decision offers most quickly by giving the player agency over things (or especially people) outside the character, or by unmooring a decision temporally, thus that it affects past or far future events, instead of immediate action.

A GM cannot achieve immersion in the role of world builder, that is at direct odds with the goal. It is possible to do so while providing agency to a NPC, but probably harder that it is for a player. GM as referee doesn't have a character to relate to, unless we're directly personifying the rules, so immersion cannot be a concern.

It's very nearly the same as my initial post about how to define to a narrative mechanic, but is more specifically concerned with the incentives faced by player and character. There isn't any point to a discussion of immersion unless we settle on what it is and what mechanics encourage or discourage it.

 

[pemerton]

There isn't any point to a discussion of immersion unless we settle on what it is and what mechanics encourage or discourage it.

That's a strong claim!

 

[clearstream]

We're doing immersion again? That mostly just leads to a lot of subjective statements that could just as easily be read "I had the most memorable time when..." or "I had the most fun playing..."

I offered a mechanical understanding of immersion here:

Ah, I wasn't attempting any specific technical rigour there. Immersion - vaguely defined - is generally considered a significant aspect of human engagement with games (see for instance how post-classical narratologists talk about "new-types of immersive drama" in the same breath as games.) I was responding to a fairly naturally put statement from another poster who I also did not take to be using the word with any special rigour.

That said, I did have something in mind, and that was not "fun playing" nor even "the most memorable time". I don't really play games just with fun in mind - the satisfactions I pursue are varied and multi-faceted. I was thinking in the direction of a subjective state of devotion, selflessness, and high concentration of attention. As you perhaps were thinking (in your linked post) "space" between player and character is implicated, although to articulate exactly how would need rather more ink.

It's very nearly the same as my initial post about how to define to a narrative mechanic, but is more specifically concerned with the incentives faced by player and character. There isn't any point to a discussion of immersion unless we settle on what it is and what mechanics encourage or discourage it.

We surely must say what it is before we can hold a rigorous conversation about it! Perhaps that's not necessary at this juncture, though.

 

[Umbran]

No, the flashback is just when we learn of the events. But otherwise the events of a flashback work just like they would in any other game. The player declares an action for the character, and then we use the rules to determine how it goes, with the GM narrating results. The situation took some effort on the part of the character, which is represented by stress.

Nothing that’s happening in the fiction for the characters is anything they couldn’t do. In the game, we’re simply not adhering to strict chronology. The breach in chronology is entirely nondiegetic.

I know flashback mechanics from Leverage, but it sounds like they are much the same, given the similar genres.

I think, though, I see some bits here that speak to what I think about when I consider "narrative mechanics". A lot of what we seem to discuss is use of a mechanic in what sounds like otherwise fairly traditional play - the mechanic is being used to gain some added degree of success on a specific test. Largely, then speaking of a mechanic feeding into another mechanic. The narrative control isn't actually the point - the point is to influence a particular tactical situation, most likely a specific success test.

ELIOT: Damnit! There's four guards here. How am I supposed to get past them without a ruckus?
HARDISSON: What, don't you remember the fake FBI badge I handed to you before you left? That'll give you what you need, bro.

But those aren't the only "narrative mechanics" out there. Let's consider some narrative mechanics in which the narrative change is the point. I'll start with one example:

In Fate - let us consider a Conflict (for simplicity, a fight). There are two ways for the conflict to end - the player/GM (not the character/NPC) Concedes, or one of the characters is Taken Out.

If someone is Taken Out, whoever inflicted the final Stress gets to narrate how this happens, and the state of the character removed from the scene - they could be dead, unconscious, fallen off a cliff and their body not found, turned over to the cops, or whatever.

We also note that the narrative choice is not the character's choice. If the villain Takes Out a PC, and the GM may have made it clear that the Villain wants the PC dead, the narration might still be that the PC is knocked out, but alive, because the GM thinks continuing the drama is preferable to just killing the PC.

Similarly, if someone Concedes, the person who did so gets to narrate the state for the character as they depart the scene. It is important to note that this is the player/GM who Concedes - it is not that the PC or NPC in the story is willfully retreating or has given up. So, a reasonable Concession might be that, as they battle the BBEG, rocks fall from the cavern roof, cutting off the villain from the PCs while the villain rages because they still want to try to kill the PCs.

Whatever it is, this narration does not change the success/failure state of the conflict. The conflict was already won or lost. This sets only the narrative/story state of the conflict. It is all about the Narrative.

 

[Umbran]

That's a strong claim!

It is a strong claim they can make for themselves, though. Discussion of immersion, for them, has no point without those definitions. They can choose to not take part in discussion of immersion, then.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I know flashback mechanics from Leverage, but it sounds like they are much the same, given the similar genres.

John Harper was writing Leverage hacks (in particular the FAQ character sheets that replaced the six stats with Forceful, Analytical, and Quick) before he wrote Blades. And from my reading Blades is almost as inspired by Leverage as it is by Apocalypse World. So a bit more than similar genres

 

[Pedantic]

John Harper was writing Leverage hacks (in particular the FAQ character sheets that replaced the six stats with Forceful, Analytical, and Quick) before he wrote Blades. And from my reading Blades is almost as inspired by Leverage as it is by Apocalypse World. So a bit more than similar genres

I'd quite like to see a take on the heist flashback that doesn't invalidate heist planning as a gameable mechanic. I'd enjoy a game that both encourages me to plan for as many contingencies as possible, and provides some limited resource to supplement that with further retroactive planning.

 

[Umbran]

John Harper was writing Leverage hacks (in particular the FAQ character sheets that replaced the six stats with Forceful, Analytical, and Quick) before he wrote Blades. And from my reading Blades is almost as inspired by Leverage as it is by Apocalypse World. So a bit more than similar genres

Cool! History I did not know.

 

[FrogReaver]

I would argue that’s not the entire point. I believe that is part of the reason for it… it fits with the “get to the action” ideology of Blades.

Okay, let's say i'm not completely right there, how does that impact the conversation on diegetic vs non-diegetic mechanics?

But it is also about creating decision points during play. Not before play, but during play.

What you mean here by 'in play' is a bit confusing. Do you mean during 'the action'? Because most games handle character inventory management 'during play'.

Inventory in Blades comes up so much more frequently than it does in most other games I’ve played. So the idea that the player doesn’t have to engage with it is clearly false. You have to engage with it every session.

If what you are trying to convey is that 'inventory decisions' in Blades come up more frequently and matter more in Blades than other games then I'd agree. The combination of having a relatively small inventory and the ability to post hoc claim you brought a contextually useful item basically ensures this.

Diegetic (somewhat ironically, in this case) means “part of the narrative”, or for RPGs, part of the game world. Loadout and item selection is part of the game world.

But here's the crux - The player's decision point for item selection is not-diegetic simply because Loadout is part of the game world.

There are indeed nondiegetic game mechanics… I already provided an example from Blades: the Devil’s Bargain. I’d say that Inspiration from 5e is likely another. Hero points and other bennies with no in game relation… there are likely very many we could list.

If a player offers you a Devil's Bargain to sacrifice an item for a bonus die, isn't sacrificing that item something that's happening in the game world?

We can also frame 5e inspiration similarly - if a player uses inspiration to give advantage on a saving throw to avoid a Dragon's fear effect, isn't the Dragon's fear effect something that exists in the game world?

Or to be more blunt - since these relate to things that exist in the game world - why are you calling them non-diegetic?

No, the flashback is just when we learn of the events. But otherwise the events of a flashback work just like they would in any other game. The player declares an action for the character, and then we use the rules to determine how it goes, with the GM narrating results. The situation took some effort on the part of the character, which is represented by stress.

I'd say that if the flashback is when we learn of the events then the character doesn't experience the flashback. Instead the character experienced those events in linear, chronological time - but not the flashback itself.

Nothing that’s happening in the fiction for the characters is anything they couldn’t do. In the game, we’re simply not adhering to strict chronology. The breach in chronology is entirely nondiegetic.

I don’t know if I agree with that. Yes the player calls for the flashback. But the character doesn’t experience it. They experience the events of the flashback. But this is no different than the many other ways that games establish details retroactively.

I'd describe that by saying the events of the flashback are diegetic, the flashback itself is non-diegetic.

To tie this back to Loadout - I'd suggest the way Blades handles Loadout is itself a form of flashback. One could imagine a brief cutscene where it shows the character previously packing this gun for this score. That's essentially what's happening when a player declares a Loadout item in Blades.

 

[pemerton]

I'd describe that by saying the events of the flashback are diegetic, the flashback itself is non-diegetic.

Oxford Languages, via Google, gives me the following for diegetic:

(of sound in a film, television programme, etc.) occurring within the context of the story and able to be heard by the characters.​

So diegetic seems to be a way of describing whether or not an event that is experienced by the audience is also an event that occurs within the fiction and hence is apt to be experienced by the characters.

Given that it's almost always the case that the characters in the fiction do not experience any event which consists in the use or application of a RPG mechanic, it seems to follow that all mechanics are non-diegetic. Although my own inclination, rather, would be to conclude that diegetic isn't a very useful term for describing mechanics.

In any event, in most RPGing, rolling the dice is not a diegetic event. But sometimes it is - eg when, decades ago now, a PC in a game I was GMing played dice games against ogres in their castle, and we resolved those by playing a dice game at the table.

In a film, a flashback may be diegetic - eg if the character is, now, recalling what happened in the past - or it may not be - eg if it is the author/film-maker revealing to us, the audience, events that are prior to the predominant "now" of the fictional work. I don't know enough about BitD to express a view, but in my example from 2008 the flashback is clearly diegetic:

But which of Diplomacy, Acrobatics or Arcana is the correct skill? You (the player) tell me (another player, or the GM).

Using Diplomacy: "Remember that time we were visiting the Wizards' Guild in Greyhawk? And I was buttering up that Burglomancer specialist? She told me a heap of old magical passwords - I try them all." The player rolls Diplomacy (probably at a hard DC - it's a pretty far-fetched story!) to see if this is true.

Using Acrobatics: "As the Watcher in the Water writhes about with its tentacles, I dodge at the last minute so it smashes into the door and breaks it." That might be a hard DC as well.

Using Arcana: "I speak a spell of opening". Medium DC. Or "I speak a spell of recall, to remember all the passwords and riddles I've learned over the years". That's more interesting and more clever- let's say a Medium DC with a +2 circumstance modifier.

In this example, the character is literally remembering, and inviting others to remember, a thing that happened in the past relative to when they are speaking, which is the "now" of the fiction.