D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Gammadoodler]

If you don't consider Dave Bautista magic I don't know what is

First..haha..

Second, it looks like you are attempting to be funny in lieu of defending your assertion or answering the question.

It can work, but it kinda signals a lack of interest in actually supporting your positions, and that future dialogue is unlikely to be fruitful.

 

[M_Natas]

First..haha..

Second, it looks like you are attempting to be funny in lieu of defending your assertion or answering the question.

It can work, but it kinda signals a lack of interest in actually supporting your positions, and that future dialogue is unlikely to be fruitful.

Like, with Drax we are talking Alien here. The same with Superman. And in the MCU and DCU, Aliens don't have the same baseline abilities as Humans.
In D&D 5e, all playable races have the same baseline abilities.
Without adventuring/Player or NPC Classes all creatures are around 8 to 12 in any ability score.
So the average person of any race can lift around 300 pounds (lifting is 30× strength score).
Some races like goliath double that, so that's 600 pounds.

That is the baseline. I only now MCU Drax and not comic Drax, but he seems to fit as a Playable D&D race (if I remember correctly). He doesn't seem super strong like Superman, who can lift millions of tons.

Strength also defines how far you can jump, which is strength score in feet. So a mundane person D&D person who gets his strength score to 20 is the baseline for strongest non magical character.
Which, as a goliath would be 1200 pounds lifting, 600 pounds continuous carrying and 20 feet jumps.

If a hero does more than that, he would count as supernatural in the context of D&D.

 

[overgeeked]

And how exactly does that do anything for in-setting consistency?

Note: if "in-setting consistency is irrelevant" or similar is your answer, please try again.

Look. If some bizarre notion of consistency is so important to you it’s worth shooting yourself in the foot, you do you. But don’t pretend like it has to be equally important to everyone else.

 

[Aldarc]

And how exactly does that do anything for in-setting consistency?

Note: if "in-setting consistency is irrelevant" or similar is your answer, please try again.

The consistency of the setting exists in the fiction and not the mechanics. The mechanics exist so that players can run their characters while the GM can run their NPCs. Characters in the game cannot see the mechanics.

 

[M_Natas]

The consistency of the setting exists in the fiction and not the mechanics. The mechanics exist so that players can run their characters while the GM can run their NPCs. Characters in the game cannot see the mechanics.

But mechanics and setting/content need to align somewhat.
That was one of the many reasons 4e failed. All classes felt mechanically the same.

 

[Aldarc]

That was one of the many reasons 4e failed. All classes felt mechanically the same.

The point you raise here is a different issue than whether PCs and NPCs should be built the same, and 4e did not fail because of that and this is also something it shares in common with 5e. If you want to argue that 5e has failed because it stats PCs differently than GM NPCs, then be my guest and argue that, because that's the issue being discussed here and not PC classes feeling the same.

 

[Li Shenron]

My problem is more, that the Classes by itself are quite arbitrary.
They are not really divided by party role (Tank, Support, Melee or even just Magic, Support, Martial), nor by origin of power (innate power, loaend power, learned power).

You're not wrong, originally classes were defined by  role (note: general adventuring role, NOT just combat role which is a subset). Through history, classes were added more because of narrative concepts.

At the same time, we wanted to be able to freely combine narrative with origin with combat role with non-combat role...

 

[FrozenNorth]

Yeah I dont think he’s a good example of wizard either, my list originally included Sun Wukong, but I was focussing on Martials and he‘s great example of a Wizard (Bladesinger?), so is Doctor Strange.

I think Sun Wukong is a great example actually, except for the whole Monkey God part.

Here’s a character who is great with melee combat and also uses magic. His magic seems innate, he doesn’t carry a spellbook, but for some reason, he gets slotted as a wizard rather than a fighter.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Wearing weighted clothing to get strong is supernatural?

Also, are we talking comics 'The Destroyer' Drax, or 'Does Whatever a Dave Batista Can' movies Drax? Is Dave Batista magic? It would explains some things...

Dave Bautista IS magic. The guy is 54 years old and still playing Drax.

 

[TwoSix]

And how exactly does that do anything for in-setting consistency?

Note: if "in-setting consistency is irrelevant" or similar is your answer, please try again.

It’s fairly trivial to present NPCs as being fictionally consistent with PCs even if they have different mechanical underpinnings, unless the players are actively looking at the NPCs mechanics and trying to confirm that they match PC build parameters.

What aids me in this is that I’m a stickler about presenting every NPC as unique, and being very clear that classes are not something that’s extant in the fiction. A PC and an NPC might both call themselves “wizards” and use arcane magic, but they learned magic differently and have different talents, and this use very different mechanics.