D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[Gammadoodler]

Would it be considered not in the spirit of the thread to say that the way to fix the gap, which exists, is for martials to not exist? Then there won't be a gap anymore.

Sigh. I think you know the answer to that question.

 

[M_Natas]

Since the thread is actually about closing the martial/caster gap, I'd like to point out that the 80s era discussion about realism in a fantasy game that we're reprising, in that context, is essentially a nerf casters or buff martials debate

If realism holds, and martials have to be as lacking as they are now (if not moreso, like hps = CON score, weeks of healing w/o magic, etc), then casters must be nerfed, hard. Like, Tier 1, cantrips. Tier 2, a first level spell slot, half way thru, it becomes level 2, Tier 3, add a third level spell slot.... actually, no, like street magic and cold readings. (and "monsters" are like, remnant populations of pre-historic life)

If realism is abandoned, entirely, martials can just be buffed. Like anime/wuxia, Heracles/Cuchulain type stuff.

If realism is irrelevant, and genre is the guide, martials should be buffed significantly but not to supernatural levels, and casters nerfed, but not so hard they're down to legerdermain and bluff.

You need some realism.
Any work of fiction that has no realism at all can't be understood.

That's why books about "Xylotirants who knoxilexes trgidians" don't sell, but books about "mystical knights who have to fight evil forces who want to suppress the whole galaxy work".
You need verisimilitude.
You need a frame of reference.
You need some realistic parts in order to support the fantasy parts.

That's why in like 99% of all fantasy and sci-fi books you have humans or at least creatures who are like earth humans. As a frame of reference.
And in the works that don't have humans at all (only kids movies come to mind right now), you have stand ins for humans.

And the D&D human is pretty much an earth human. That's why we are able to play that game, because if they were not human but Xylotirants, we couldn't even begin to fathom on how to roleplay them.

When we play D&D we need to assume that the mundane world outside of Magic, God's and other supernatural stuff acts like the real world, because if it would act totally differently, we would need all our brain capacity to imagine the mundane differences.

Let's go back to fiction:
Crunching Tiger and Hidden Dragon, yes, they jump around and stuff, doing Wire Fu. I watched the movie in cinemas as a kid. But in order to buy the Wire Fu, the rest if the world was a more or less realistic facimilie of life in China at that fictional time.
But if you would put Wire Fu in the ... Alien / Predator franchise, the whole thing would fall apart (outside of maybe a scary movie like spoof movie) and nobody would like, because know you have Wire fu and Aliens.
The more fantastical elements you add the further away do you go from the audience experience the less the audience can relate to the things shown on screen or happening in the game.

Of course you can train people to accept more. Like D&D players who played for the last 40 years or Fantasy Nerds in general can accept more fantastical elements than the normal population in their media, but that is very individual.

Like ... "Everything, everywhere all at once" - I really liked the movie and it is an Oscar winner. But a lot of people are like "WTF, what is that naughty word?", like my wife who doesn't watch Fantasy or SciFi at all outside of some Vampire stuff.

You need some realism or at least the Illusion of realism. You need something relatable jn the game. That's why you have in the Guardians of the Galaxy one human (who later turned out to be a god, but outside of that he doesn't do god stuff) so people can relate to the movie. Without the Human in Guardians of the Galaxy you would have a Howard the Duck Like Flop on you hands.

Thats why D&D Humans are humans. Thats why the mundane D&D world behaves more like the real world. Because I'd they weren't you would loose a lot of players.
That's also why you start new players with Lost mines of Phandelver and not with Spelljammer or Planescape, because they are higher concept with less realism. In the spelljammer campaign I run I still have some players who are grudgy about the irrational behaviour of Gravitational Planes who act the most convenient and are not governed by any logical rule.

 

[mamba]

Either what?

reading minds and walking on tree branches

 

[Vaalingrade]

I kinda wish we'd stop talking about magical humans and pursue a much more achievable goal, which is nerfing the holy hell out of casters.

Again, that doesn't make martials any more fun to play. It just makes casters share in our suffering.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You need verisimilitude.

You don't need it in the way it is applied in the martial/caster debate: a means by which to stifle and deny fantasy--but only to a targeted subset of people.

 

[Raiztt]

Sigh. I think you know the answer to that question.

Not at all - if you guys want super hero, wuxia wire-fighting, boulder splitting martials just make them explicitly supernatural and give them magical powers. Done and dusted.

 

[overgeeked]

You need some realism.
Any work of fiction that has no realism at all can't be understood.

That's why books about "Xylotirants who knoxilexes trgidians" don't sell, but books about "mystical knights who have to fight evil forces who want to suppress the whole galaxy work".
You need verisimilitude.
You need a frame of reference.
You need some realistic parts in order to support the fantasy parts.

That's why in like 99% of all fantasy and sci-fi books you have humans or at least creatures who are like earth humans. As a frame of reference.
And in the works that don't have humans at all (only kids movies come to mind right now), you have stand ins for humans.

And the D&D human is pretty much an earth human. That's why we are able to play that game, because if they were not human but Xylotirants, we couldn't even begin to fathom on how to roleplay them.

When we play D&D we need to assume that the mundane world outside of Magic, God's and other supernatural stuff acts like the real world, because if it would act totally differently, we would need all our brain capacity to imagine the mundane differences.

Let's go back to fiction:
Crunching Tiger and Hidden Dragon, yes, they jump around and stuff, doing Wire Fu. I watched the movie in cinemas as a kid. But in order to buy the Wire Fu, the rest if the world was a more or less realistic facimilie of life in China at that fictional time.
But if you would put Wire Fu in the ... Alien / Predator franchise, the whole thing would fall apart (outside of maybe a scary movie like spoof movie) and nobody would like, because know you have Wire fu and Aliens.
The more fantastical elements you add the further away do you go from the audience experience the less the audience can relate to the things shown on screen or happening in the game.

Of course you can train people to accept more. Like D&D players who played for the last 40 years or Fantasy Nerds in general can accept more fantastical elements than the normal population in their media, but that is very individual.

Like ... "Everything, everywhere all at once" - I really liked the movie and it is an Oscar winner. But a lot of people are like "WTF, what is that naughty word?", like my wife who doesn't watch Fantasy or SciFi at all outside of some Vampire stuff.

You need some realism or at least the Illusion of realism. You need something relatable jn the game. That's why you have in the Guardians of the Galaxy one human (who later turned out to be a god, but outside of that he doesn't do god stuff) so people can relate to the movie. Without the Human in Guardians of the Galaxy you would have a Howard the Duck Like Flop on you hands.

Thats why D&D Humans are humans. Thats why the mundane D&D world behaves more like the real world. Because I'd they weren't you would loose a lot of players.
That's also why you start new players with Lost mines of Phandelver and not with Spelljammer or Planescape, because they are higher concept with less realism. In the spelljammer campaign I run I still have some players who are grudgy about the irrational behaviour of Gravitational Planes who act the most convenient and are not governed by any logical rule.

The question is: where do you put the verisimilitude? For most fiction it’s in the relationships between the characters. Not the setting, power levels, etc. So superheroes can make sense because the relationships are relatable to us even if the powers are not. So too with most fantasy.

 

[mamba]

Would it be considered not in the spirit of the thread to say that the way to fix the gap, which exists, is for martials to not exist? Then there won't be a gap anymore.

Unironically, you guys want superhero martials, let's just make sure there are no mundane martial characters. Give them magical and supernatural powers.

I don't think it is in the spirit, because you are not really closing a gap at all that way

 

[Raiztt]

I don't think it is in the spirit, because you are not really closing a gap at all that way

I would love an example of a fleshed-out game mechanic or additional rule that would satisfy them.

 

[overgeeked]

I would love an example of a fleshed-out game mechanic or additional rule that would satisfy them.

Who’s “them”?