Planescape Planescape IS D&D Says Jeremy Crawford

Planescape is Jeremy Crawford's favourite D&D setting. "It is D&D", he says, as he talks about how in the 2024 core rulebook updates Planescape will be more up front and center as "the setting of settings".

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[teitan]

Jeremy Crawford appears to be conflating 5e's default planar cosmology with Planescape-as-setting. I know that it's a narrow eye of the needle to thread, but back in the 2001 interview with David Zeb Cook (the original designer responsible with translating Slade's concept into a campaign setting) he communicates a very clear theme/tone/feel that distinguished Planescape from the previous Manuals of the Planes...



I actually found Jeremy Crawford's assertions in this latest video a bit odd... I think he is conflating two senses that Planescape can be used: Great Wheel Cosmology Planescape & Themes/Tone of Planescape. He says that they're supporting homebrew GMs with the monsters, plots, and setting material being readily adaptable for your home campaign settings. Now, rilmani don't strike me as the most obvious "drag and drop" monster, so maybe this is marketing speak... But assuming it's genuine, if they want to support homebrew GMs then the better move in the 2024 DMG would be to offer cosmological options for GMs and hang less dearly to the default "Wheel" cosmology.

But I don't think he's saying they intend to incorporate more Planescape in the sense of "experimental fictions..., mysticism, bizarre films, and lots of Philosophy 101" into the 2024 core books.

Confusing that distinction leads to misunderstanding – maybe one gamer thinks "weird mysticism and philosophy" when they hear "Planescape", and they just want to dungeon delve, kill some orcs, and bamboozle the baron. Maybe they don't care so much about whatever default cosmology is there. So saying "Planescape is D&D" to that player is actually harming their interest in the game. And the example swings the other way too – watering down the unique Planescape "weird mysticism and philosophy" by focusing on "it's ALL Planescape" harms the interest of a Planescape fan. It could be, however, that NEITHER of these player types is who they're focused on selling to.

So I guess it depends what their priority is these days – support GMs' homebrew campaigns or support the multiverse meta-setting of the D&D brand. I'm of the mind that their priority is the latter, and that the former is secondary / the opinion of individual designers but not the company / lip service.

Mentioning tieflings being associated with the Lower Planes or having blurbs about "Race/Lineage X in such-and-such a setting"? That's great. But I think that example from @Kobold Avenger about playtest material pushing humans as hailing from Sigil is a sign that they're prioritizing the multiverse meta-setting.

I'm watching with interest because I've been a Planescape fan since Mimir.net, but feeling pretty jaded from the last year both in terms of quality of WotC's products & their business practices.

You know Cook wrote the Manual of the Planes in 1e as well?

 

[bedir than]

rather than a mandatory meta-setting.

False choice.
WotC hasn't presented anything as mandatory. Their entire approach has been to minimize canon and recognize that tables determine plot and setting, not them

 

[Alzrius]

You know Cook wrote the Manual of the Planes in 1e as well?

I'm fairly confident that was Jeff Grubb.

 

[Remathilis]

You misunderstand my point: D&D doesn't need a default setting because people coming to D&D ignore whatever they want in order to tell their stories. Gygaxian cosmology has literally nothing to do with it.

I'm always amused by this train of logic. What about "D&D doesn't need default species because people want to create their own species." Or "D&D doesn't need default monsters because DMs like to create their own monsters."?

 

[Hussar]

How is it sparse? You make your own. The DMG has guidelines for that.

Umm “make your own” is the definition of sparse.

 

[Reynard]

I'm always amused by this train of logic. What about "D&D doesn't need default species because people want to create their own species." Or "D&D doesn't need default monsters because DMs like to create their own monsters."?

This is a non sequitur. A default setting is an actual setting: the Known World from BECMI, Nentir Vale from 4E. That is not the same thing as or has anything to do with built in assumptions about classes, races and monsters.

5E treads a line where it kind of wants to say FR is the "default setting" but smartly avoids actually saying it.

 

[Maxperson]

I guess it's fair to say that I conflate the Great Wheel with Planescape. I really don't see how they are separate from each other. Planescape subsumed the Great Wheel in pretty much every published product.

Let's see if a pizza analogy can explain my issues.

In my town, I have all sorts of pizza places from cheap, mass produced all the way up to masterpieces of the pizza form. And everything in between. In your town, you have the same thing. And in Bob's town, he also has all these choices. But, if you, me and Bob leave our town and meet for pizza outside of our town, we must go to Dominos Pizza. Only Dominoes exists outside of any town. No matter what, you must eat at Dominoes if you want to eat pizza between towns.

Additionally, if anyone tries to open a pizza place between towns that isn't Domninoes, they get burned to the ground by a mob of Dominoes lovers who insist that every must ONLY EVER eat at Dominoes between towns. You must not ever have any other choices.

So, yeah, that's why I dislike Planescape. It's like those people that complain about how in 5e, most of the adventures and books are set in the Sword Coast. The Sword Coast is pretty much the only game in town for 5e. ((Yes, yes, I KNOW there are other books out there, work with me here. Your pedantry is acknowledged)) And if you don't really like the Sword Coast, it makes a lot of those books not really appealing.

Now, imagine that for me, Planescape has been like that in D&D for about thirty years. Everything planar is the Sword Coast. One setting. Only one setting. No deviation. I haven't actually been interested in a planar adventure from TSR or WotC until Radiant Citadel and that's specifically because it wasn't part of Planescape. So, there is a glimmer of hope. WOtC is willing to do planar stuff that isn't ramming Planescape down everyone's throats. But, I'm not holding my breath.

I see a different pizza analogy.

The Great Wheel is pizza. For a long time we ate the pizza and most of us were happy. Then along came Planescape and said, "Look! Deep dish pizza! It has what the old pizza had and a lot more depth(lore)." Then some of us were like, "I don't like deep dish, so I'm going to stay with regular pizza." and others were like, "I love this new deep dish and won't ever go back to the old kind." Queue lots of arguments over which pizza is best, and how pineapple isn't good on either kind.

I'm curious about the statement you make above where you say, "Planescape has been like that in D&D for about thirty years." Outside of 2e games that specifically involved a DM with the Planescape boxed set(s), I haven't seen the planes as being like Planescape. Yes the DMG mentions Sigil, but it doesn't say much and is easily ignored.

Never mind. I see in the first sentence that you are conflating the Great Wheel with Planescape. So yeah, that's the default assumed cosmology for D&D. It's still pretty easy to ignore if you don't like the Great Wheel.

 

[Maxperson]

While I like Planescape, I also like the fact in 3E that they went to different cosmologies for the different campaign worlds (such as in FR & Eberron) and encouraged creating your own cosmology, and then completely dumped the great wheel for 4E. I don't want to feel like I'm being pushed back into having to have a connection to Sigil, the Outlands and all that. In fact, for the last few campaign worlds I've been creating, I've been drastically playing with the cosmology beyond the material plane.

For example, for the latest one I've been working on has Hell, the Astral and Ethereal for outer planes. No elemental planes, no FeyWild, no ShadowFell and no other outer planes - and Heaven has been destroyed.

The 5e DMG gives multiple ideas for other cosmologies and also talks about making your own. So while the Great Wheel is the default, 5e encourages DMs to use whatever they like. Nobody is pushed into the Great Wheel.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

This is a non sequitur. A default setting is an actual setting: the Known World from BECMI, Nentir Vale from 4E. That is not the same thing as or has anything to do with built in assumptions about classes, races and monsters.

Yes it is.

 

[Quickleaf]

You know Cook wrote the Manual of the Planes in 1e as well?

Really? I remember the AD&D Manual of the Planes from 1987 has Jeff Grubb credited as the author, though there's a special thanks to Zeb Cook and Douglas Niles.