D&D (2024) Playtest 8: Cantrips

[mellored]

Yes but I am not talking about the material component. To fire a crossbow, which must happen simultaneous with the somatic component use, you must use both hands. You cannot use a somatic component which requires an empty hand at the same time you use that hand to fire a crossbow, regardless of material components.

A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.

So the somatic component can be the same hand you hold the crossbow in.

I am just not seeing a typical user of this cantrip doing more damage from levels 1 to 16 than all other cantrips.

Well, not more than Eldritch Blast.

But again
At level 1: 1d8+3 > 1d12 > 1d10
At level 5: 1d8+4+1d6 = 2d12 > 2d10

Poison spray actually beats it at level 11+. But it still tied with firebolt till 16.

Add in that it's radiant, that you can swap from melee to ranged, and you got yourself the top damage cantrip.

Not including all the stuff you can use to buff weapons, like weapon mastery, elemental weapon, spirt shroud, sneak attack, war magic...
And all the stuff you can use to buff cantrips.

So yea. It needs tuned down a notch or 2.

 

[Mistwell]

You've misinterpreted; according to the material components rules:

If a spell states that a material component is consumed by the spell, the caster must provide this component for each casting of the spell. A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.​

And the material component for True Strike is the weapon you use to make the attack. In this case therefore a hand on a crossbow (or other weapon) can be used for somatic components for this spell and you don't need to take your hand off the weapon at all.

I think I've interpreted it correctly. You can in fact do the somatic portion with the crossbow in that hand as a material component, but you cannot also fire the crossbow while doing the somatic component in that hand. I assume because the somatic component requires you to move that hand, in this case with the material component waving around with it, in a specific pattern, which isn't the pattern needed to hold it steady and aim and fire a crossbow bolt. Regardless, you cannot perform both somatic components and hold and fire a crossbow in two hands even if the material component is the crossbow itself. Because the key issue here isn't the material component aspect. It's that you need two hands to hold the crossbow, and also you need one hand free to do the somatic component, even if you're allowed to wave an ordinary material component around in that free hand. It's "free" for that use of material components, but not "free" for that use of an item with the two handed weapon property, for a spell requiring both to happen simultaneously.

As far as I am aware no Sage Advice has commented on this issue either. So AT BEST you could say you think about it differently than I think about it and we're not positive either way.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Add in that it's radiant, that you can swap from melee to ranged, and you got yourself the top damage cantrip.

Not including all the stuff you can use to buff weapons, like weapon mastery, elemental weapon, spirt shroud, sneak attack, war magic...
And all the stuff you can use to buff cantrips.

So yea. It needs tuned down a notch or 2.

If some wizard wants to spend the time and effort to juggle a crossbow, crossbow bolts, and a melee weapon, all for +1 average damage on a hit on their cantrip attack when they get third level spells I see no problem in letting them. They aren't going to be going into the high damage leagues without a second attack or even challenging Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast , just faffing around at the bottom of the DPR table

 

[Mistwell]

A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.

So the somatic component can be the same hand you hold the crossbow in.

See above. I disagree. You're using the rules for material components, but ignoring the rules for two handed property and how that combines with the somatic component rules. "Spellcasting gestures might include a forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures. If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures." So while you can cast a spell with a material component in the same hand as the somatic gestures you're making as you gesture it around with that hand, you cannot aim and fire a crossbow accurately with that same hand (even if it is the material component) and I think that's more than just fluff but is supported by the rules as written.

 

[Kurotowa]

I think Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster would be using Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade over True Strike. For Bards though, I definitely think True Strike should be their priority, with Vicious Mockery and Mind Sliver for other situations.

Which Bards, though? Dance Bards don't want True Strike, they want to kick people in the face. Valor Bards might like True Strike past 14th level when they can combine it with an attack, but between 6th and 14th they'd be giving up their Extra Attack for it, and that's the prime campaign level range. So we're looking at Glamour and Lore Bards, who only get Simple weapons and Light armor.

That's not a completely dead zone, but it's not an overpowered one either. Yeah, maybe you'll see Lore Bards with Light Crossbows more. That seems a perfectly fine use case to me. A Bard needing to haul around a Crossbow and have their hands occupied isn't a no cost consideration. And there's upsides to Vicious Mockery if you don't want pure damage output.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I've interpreted it correctly. You can in fact do the somatic portion with the crossbow in that hand as a material component, but you cannot also fire the crossbow while doing the somatic component in that hand.

Why not? You explicitly make an attack as part of that spell.

Because the key issue here isn't the material component aspect. It's that you need two hands to hold the crossbow, and also you need one hand free to do the somatic component, even if you're allowed to wave an ordinary material component around in that free hand. It's "free" for that use of material components, but not "free" for that use of an item with the two handed weapon property, for a spell requiring both to happen simultaneously.

You do not need one hand free to do the somatic component if you are using it to hold the material component.

It's well established that Green Flame/Booming Blade works with glaives and other two handed weapons - but it doesn't work at reach if you are using a glaive or other polearm.

 

[Mistwell]

Why not? You explicitly make an attack as part of that spell.

You do not need one hand free to do the somatic component if you are using it to hold the material component.

It's well established that Green Flame/Booming Blade works with glaives and other two handed weapons - but it doesn't work at reach if you are using a glaive or other polearm.

You need the hand free with the material component to make "forceful gesticulation or an intricate set of gestures". For most spells that's fine. But its not fine for a spell requiring you to use both hands to aim and fire the crossbow accurately. Which is why the "simultaneous" part is more unusual with this spell. And while the spell requires a weapon, it doesn't require a two handed weapon which has this special property of requiring both hands.

I suppose the spell, which uses your spellcasting stat instead of the regular stat and can do radiant damage instead of the normal damage, could be interpreted to be almost like a homing beacon type attack. In which case maybe you're forcefully gesticulating the crossbow around not aimed all that well at a target and it magically fires and homes in on the target anyway. I can see trying to explain it that way maybe?

Again, I think this is one of those things requiring a sage advice.

 

[mellored]

I think I've interpreted it correctly. You can in fact do the somatic portion with the crossbow in that hand as a material component, but you cannot also fire the crossbow while doing the somatic component in that hand. I assume because the somatic component requires you to move that hand, in this case with the material component waving around with it, in a specific pattern, which isn't the pattern needed to hold it steady and aim and fire a crossbow bolt.

Nothing says you need to aim... it's not like you're making a weapon attack.

You're casting a spell. You do what the spell says.

If some wizard wants to spend the time and effort to juggle a crossbow, crossbow bolts, and a melee weapon, all for +1 average damage on a hit on their cantrip attack when they get third level spells I see no problem in letting them.

What about dealing 36% more damage from levels 1-4?

Not sure why you're this against reducing the damage a bit.

Make it was a point lower than firebolt, with a much better damage type and usable in melee. That's a decent choice.

 

[Mistwell]

Nothing says you need to aim... it's not like you're making a weapon attack.

"you make one attack with the weapon." Yes, you need to aim and fire it. You're making an attack role to hit it, use all cover rules as normal, are trying to hit their AC, yes you're aiming, at least as far as this text seems to say.

You're casting a spell. You do what the spell says.

What about dealing 36% more damage from levels 1-4?

I mean, give me the examples here. Do the math and show it. I am not saying you're wrong I am saying we're missing a key part of analysis here.

Not sure why you're this against reducing the damage a bit.

Make it was a point lower than firebolt, with a much better damage type and usable in melee. That's a decent choice.

Show me you're correct and I'd be happy to agree with you

 

[Neonchameleon]

Which Bards, though? Dance Bards don't want True Strike, they want to kick people in the face.

I'm going to disagree here. Some Dance Bards are going to go dex primary, some cha primary, and some are going to try to be balanced. Cha primary dance bards (and possibly balanced ones) are going to like true strike - even if they don't get to use it on opportunity attacks.

Valor Bards might like True Strike past 14th level when they can combine it with an attack, but between 6th and 14th they'd be giving up their Extra Attack for it, and that's the prime campaign level range. So we're looking at Glamour and Lore Bards, who only get Simple weapons and Light armor. That's not a completely dead zone, but it's not an overpowered one either. Yeah, maybe you'll see Lore Bards with Light Crossbows more. That seems a perfectly fine use case to me. A Bard needing to haul around a Crossbow and have their hands occupied isn't a no cost consideration. And there's upsides to Vicious Mockery if you don't want pure damage output.

That's just in the PHB. In addition you're definitely looking at Whispers (which want to weapon attack thanks to Psychic Blades), and probably also Creation, Glamour, and Spirits. Valour (and Swords which is basically Valour Mk2) as you say don't.

This is a top tier bard cantrip, competing for the default bard spot with Vicious Mockery (and making the bard making a raid on Eldritch Blast less desirable). And Mockery probably needs a damage buff to at least d6.