D&D (2024) Playtest 8: Cantrips

[mellored]

Oh wow, read that wrong. So a Druid could cast this, wildshape, and have the option to hit at range from it's beast form, yes?

As written, yes.

And they already could with stuff like call lightning. So this might be intentional.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Unless there is something I'm missing, basically any caster can become decent in melee by taking Blade Ward + True Strike.

Instagish!

I like it.

Maybe the only thing so far in 5.5 that I like a lot, unless Druid templates make it back in.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Shillelagh does seem like it would have knock on effects, as it is far better for classes that have multiple attacks then regular Druids. Perhaps if it was also reworked similar to the blade cantrips (action to cast, attack with staff/club as part of the action)? Also the last scaling at 17th level seem like it should be 3d4 instead of 2d6, but I guess they wanted to keep it in line with weapon damage?

It is usually better for multi-attacking characters, but don't forget about the new Druid design. Every Shillelagh using Druid will have the option to add +1d8 at 7th and +2d8 at 15th. It isn't as fast as scaling for extra attack, but it ends up being quite the nasty hit. 2d6+2d8+5 is 21 damage per hit, and there are a few tricks to make it better.

I don't see what all the fuss with Friends is about. All the charmed condition does is (other than once again the target is a "visible" creature in range, rather than a creature you can see). The Charmed condition only give you advantage on CHA role interactions with the target, it's not hard core mind control, merely the help action on certain skill checks against the target. There is none of the 'friendly acquaintance verbiage from Charm Person. The only additional benefit that approaches Mind Control is that they can't attack you while charmed, but with how easy it is to end the spell, that should not be a much of a problem.

Yeah, this is where I am with it. This is no better than the Help action, and carries social problems. I want to remove most of the restrictions on it, because it just isn't that strong.

Finally, the one cantrip that needed to be fixed above all others: True Strike. It is certainly an upgrade, but that's hardly a revelation. However, I don't think the fiction and the mechanics of the cantrip really match now. Why the radiant damage? Why could it not just allow you to use your spellcasting stat for a weapon attack, and do regular weapon damage, with scaling introduced to represent the growing insight of the divination on where/when to strike? Is just plain b/p/s damage going to so resisted in 1D&D that we need to change the damage type of everything? Won't spell casters have other means of changing the damage type of their weapon attacks (i.e. a magic weapon or the actual magic weapon spell)?

There is the idea that resistance to non-magical B/P/S is going away, and it will just be resistance to B/P/S, with all magical damage being a different type.

And you could cast another spell, but that would feel a bit icky to me. But, personally, I'm fine with the ability. Black Flash!

 

[mellored]

It is usually better for multi-attacking characters, but don't forget about the new Druid design. Every Shillelagh using Druid will have the option to add +1d8 at 7th and +2d8 at 15th. It isn't as fast as scaling for extra attack, but it ends up being quite the nasty hit. 2d6+2d8+5 is 21 damage per hit, and there are a few tricks to make it better.

It works nice as a opportunity attack. Or even a friendly battle master with commanders strike.

And your probably not going to be casting cantrips much at that level anyways.

That said, poison spray will be 4d12+5 which is 31 damage at 330'.

 

[Gadget]

There is the idea that resistance to non-magical B/P/S is going away, and it will just be resistance to B/P/S, with all magical damage being a different type.

And you could cast another spell, but that would feel a bit icky to me. But, personally, I'm fine with the ability. Black Flash!

Yes, it seems clear that magical B/P/S damage is going away. My point was: so what? It's a cantrip. If something is resistant to B/P/S damage, maybe you shouldn't, as a spellcaster, be using a weapon (or this particular weapon) cantrip against it. Sure, there are dippers, gishes & magic initiate takers, but those types seem to be much less likely to benefit from using their spellcasting stat in place of STR or Dex.

Or more likely, you already have a magic weapon yourself and thus will be doing force damage anyway (assuming magic weapons will be moved over to doing force damage, which hasn't been officially confirmed but seems very likely at this point).

 

[Chaosmancer]

It works nice as a opportunity attack. Or even a friendly battle master with commanders strike.

And your probably not going to be casting cantrips much at that level anyways.

That said, poison spray will be 4d12+5 which is 31 damage at 330'.

True, I'm not against buffing it a little more. Just not sure what kind of scaling would be best.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes, it seems clear that magical B/P/S damage is going away. My point was: so what? It's a cantrip. If something is resistant to B/P/S damage, maybe you shouldn't, as a spellcaster, be using a weapon (or this particular weapon) cantrip against it. Sure, there are dippers, gishes & magic initiate takers, but those types seem to be much less likely to benefit from using their spellcasting stat in place of STR or Dex.

Or more likely, you already have a magic weapon yourself and thus will be doing force damage anyway (assuming magic weapons will be moved over to doing force damage, which hasn't been officially confirmed but seems very likely at this point).

I mean, I guess I don't see any reason that a caster using a cantrip has to use B/P/S either. And so there is nothing inherently wrong with the effect.

 

[Gadget]

I mean, I guess I don't see any reason that a caster using a cantrip has to use B/P/S either. And so there is nothing inherently wrong with the effect.

Well, since virtually all of your other cantrips do another type of damage (Magic Stone and Thorn Whip usually being on another class's list, save Warlocks getting Magic Stone as well), I don't see any reason or rule that says a caster using a cantrip can't use B/P/S. And since the fiction of the cantrip is that you are using divination magic to know when/where/how to strike with the weapon you have to hand, it feels very forced and tacked on to make it radiant damage of all things, ymmv and all.

 

[Kurotowa]

I've been continuing to put some thought into the builds that could use True Strike for a gish playstyle, rather than just letting a Wizard or Sorcerer have a stylish alternative to Fire Bolt, and there's not many. The main limitation is that unlike Blade Pact or Shillelagh it isn't a passive effect, which means it doesn't mix well any sort of Extra Attack feature. The secondary limitation is that not every gish wants to go SAD on their caster stat.

Paladins and Rangers don't want to give up their Extra Attack, and Monk is right out. Bladelocks and Battle Smith Artificers already get to attack with their caster stat, and don't want to give up their Extra Attack either. Eldritch Knight Fighters and Bladesinger Wizards get to mix cantrips into their Extra Attack feature, but because they have to mix weapon attacks with cantrips using True Strike doesn't make them any less MAD. Still, a small use case for those last two.

Blade, Valor, and Dance Bards already have "be decent at melee" features that are mostly incompatible with True Strike. The other Bard subclasses don't offer anything that synergizes with it. Most Druid subclasses also don't offer much synergy, and already get Shillelagh if they want to melee, while Moon does its own thing.

An Arcane Trickster Rogue could be built around True Strike ...except the new Cunning Strike's DC scales off Dex, and Arcane Trickster gets few enough spells you don't get a lot of value from prioritizing Int. Artillerist Artificer could in theory do a melee cantrip build, except their Arcane Firearm explicitly only works with Artificer spells and True Strike isn't on their list, so it doesn't work if you pick it up from some other feature.

Really, I think my previous thought holds true. The only class that's really open to using True Strike as a mainstay, where it doesn't lose any Extra Attack and has other features that support weapon attacks, is Cleric. You can totally do a Cleric that does the usual Cleric things with spells and healing and Spiritual Weapon, and backs it up with a Crossbow or Musket attacking with True Strike. War Cleric is completely optional, because while getting a Weapon Mastery is nice the Bonus Action attacks aren't covered by True Strike either.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Really, I think my previous thought holds true. The only class that's really open to using True Strike as a mainstay, where it doesn't lose any Extra Attack and has other features that support weapon attacks, is Cleric. You can totally do a Cleric that does the usual Cleric things with spells and healing and Spiritual Weapon, and backs it up with a Crossbow or Musket attacking with True Strike. War Cleric is completely optional, because while getting a Weapon Mastery is nice the Bonus Action attacks aren't covered by True Strike either.

You're missing a couple of options. Celestial warlocks can use it in place of Eldritch Blast at up to level 10, and Artillerist artificers can use it with their staff firearms (and IMO should be allowed to use crossbows or muskets as firearms) - and non-battlesmiths might want to use it with actual firearms. Also dance bards can go True Strike as a legit option and have a mixed weapon and unarmed style.