D&D (2024) Playtest 8: Cantrips

[mellored]

Though...

Eldritch Knight + Shillelagh + Eldritch Blast.

4d6+ 10 + 4 + 4d10 + 20
= 70
(+ crossbow expertise?)

And studied attack works with EB.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Though...

Eldritch Knight + Shillelagh + Eldritch Blast.

4d6+ 10 + 4 + 4d10 + 20
= 70
(+ crossbow expertise?)

And studied attack works with EB.

It could work, but you'd need to devote two feats to getting the cantrips (Magic Initiate twice is the only way I see) then another feat on Eldritch Initiate to get agonizing blast, then a fourth feat for crossbow expert (Actually better to get the new spell sniper).

Then get your intelligence to 20.

So, that is six feats. Doable, but intensive and I'm not sure being SAD is worth that much of an investment. Could be a fun niche build though

 

[mellored]

It could work, but you'd need to devote two feats to getting the cantrips (Magic Initiate twice is the only way I see) then another feat on Eldritch Initiate to get agonizing blast, then a fourth feat for crossbow expert (Actually better to get the new spell sniper).

A dip into warlock would save a 2 feats, and give you Hex.
Possibly 2 levels for Pact Blade.

4d6+ 10 + 4 + 4d10 + 20 + 6d6
= 91

Spell sniper, +2 Cha, and still have some free feats.


Alternatively
Pact Blade / Eldritch Knight 3.

 

[Chaosmancer]

A dip into warlock would save a 2 feats, and give you Hex.
Possibly 2 levels for Pact Blade.

4d6+ 10 + 4 + 4d10 + 20 + 6d6
= 91

Spell sniper, +2 Cha, and still have some free feats.

For a second I was thinking that made this a level 18 build, but then I remembered how those things scale by character level.

Of course, if you get Eldritch Blast from dipping Warlock, then it scales of Charisma, not Intelligence. So, then you need Intelligence and Charisma maxed out, which is pretty hard to sell.

Alternatively
Pact Blade / Eldritch Knight 3.

Same issue as above, Warlock and Pact of the Blade scales with Charisma. So, you'd be playing an Eldritch Knight that wants to max Charisma for their casting stat.

Plus, what is the value for a Warlock level 17 of having levels of Eldritch Knight? It would just give you some slots and some cantrips, and you could do the same thing by getting the Pact of the Tome. Now, two levels of fighter could give some ideas, but that has nothing to do with Shillelagh and True Strike by this point, and Bladelocks can't combine melee attacks with cantrips.

 

[mellored]

Of course, if you get Eldritch Blast from dipping Warlock, then it scales of Charisma, not Intelligence. So, then you need Intelligence and Charisma maxed out, which is pretty hard to sell.

Shillelagh doesn't require using Int. You "can" use it, but don't have to.

So barbarians can rage with 2d6 in each hand. It's a strong choice for any late game melee.

Or Pact Blade can still use Cha.

True strike requires casting stat.

Plus, what is the value for a Warlock level 17 of having levels of Eldritch Knight?

I was wrong. You need EK 7, not 3.

So either Warlock 11 / ek 7 with Lifedrinker, and probably GOO to boost Hex (for your allies).

Or EK 13 / warlock 2, with studied attack and more second winds. Probably levels smoother too.

Either can use Cha for 6 attacks per action.

And you have action surge. Which works because you use it to take the attack action...

Oh... Spirit Shroud works with EB...
So Warlock 11 / EK 7
4d6 + 10 + 4 + 4d10 + 20 + 12d8
= 124

 

[Chaosmancer]

Shillelagh doesn't require using Int. You "can" use it, but don't have to.

Ah, I missed that. I guess I don't see much of the point of using it just to change the weapon.

So barbarians can rage with 2d6 in each hand. It's a strong choice for any late game melee.

Or Pact Blade can still use Cha.

True strike requires casting stat.

I don't think Pact of the Blade really works effectively with Shillelagh, there is some stretching to count a mutable pact weapon for the cantrip.

But, more importantly, to use two clubs, with Shillelagh and Rage would require three bonus actions. And for the feat you spent getting Shillelagh, I'm not sure you couldn't do better. Discounting rage cause it is the same for all uses.

6d6+10 --> 31

Taking the Dual-Weapon Style Feat would allow for 3d6+15 --> 25.5 so that isn't enough on its own.

Dual Wielder feat was altered, not sure which version is making it in, but the newest version would allow 2d8+1d6+10

So, the Shillelagh is better than any other single feat dual-wielding, but if we do Great Weapon Master --> 4d6+10+5 -->29, which is almost as good, and has the bonus of giving you an ASI towards a stat you want, unlike shillelagh. So, it is good, but not super broken on its own. And, the benefit of the Great Weapon Master version is it leave open a bonus action for the third attack, beating Shillelagh, and it doesn't cost near as much to set up.

So, Shillelagh is good for a dual-wielding club build, but I'm not sure it is a must have. Just a decent option.

I was wrong. You need EK 7, not 3.

So either Warlock 11 / ek 7 with Lifedrinker, and probably GOO to boost Hex (for your allies).

Or EK 13 / warlock 2, with studied attack and more second winds. Probably levels smoother too.

Either can use Cha for 6 attacks per action.

And you have action surge. Which works because you use it to take the attack action...

Oh... Spirit Shroud works with EB...
So Warlock 11 / EK 7
4d6 + 10 + 4 + 4d10 + 20 + 12d8
= 124

Right, but what is noticeable about that build is that it isn't doing anything new. That character could use a Greatsword for the exact same damage numbers, just with a different set of MAD. Because your Eldritch Knight spells and abilities still work off Intelligence, and to take advantage of the heavy armor you need some strength anyways. And if you are dumping INT and focusing on just strength and Cha... then you end up with the same thing.

The difference is the one hand allowing for a shield. (which you are a level 18 character, a magical item to account for the shield is not impossible) And the weapon mastery differences.

I'm not saying any of these couldn't work or aren't strong choices, just that it all requires a great deal of effort for relatively minor buffs. The strongest thing on the EK build is the fact that they are a Warlock using Spirit Shroud and making six attacks. That has nothing to do with the cantrips at all.

And a straight EK is still doing plenty good, do the standard GWM stuff and you could be hitting for 6d6+3d8+15+5+1d8, with a potential for an additional 4d8 and a possibly 4th attack for 2d6+5, which taken all together is 89 damage, with just feats and wizard cantrips. So I think most of the Shillelagh builds and True strike builds are just getting to the same general end point through different means.

 

[mellored]

Ah, I missed that. I guess I don't see much of the point of using it just to change the weapon.

Just a damage boost.

Or I guess, a +2 AC boost from having a shield.

I don't think Pact of the Blade really works effectively with Shillelagh, there is some stretching to count a mutable pact weapon for the cantrip.

Not sure why it wouldn't work.

So, Shillelagh is good for a dual-wielding club build, but I'm not sure it is a must have. Just a decent option.

Looks right.

Because your Eldritch Knight spells and abilities still work off Intelligence, and to take advantage of the heavy armor you need some strength anyways. And if you are dumping INT and focusing on just strength and Cha... then you end up with the same thing.

Unless i missed something, you srill need Cha for Eldritch Blast.
Str, Dex or Wis for Shillelagh.
Cha or Int for True Strike.

And you can use the EK slots to cast Warlock spells. And shield which doesn't require Int.

The strongest thing on the EK build is the fact that they are a Warlock using Spirit Shroud and making six attacks. That has nothing to do with the cantrips at all.

Fair. This is getting a bit off topic. Probably should go to the warlock thread.

The main issue is still Thirsting Blade scaling to 3 attacks. Fix that and the damage will match the investment.

And True Strike still overshadowing other cantrips. Even if it doesn't combo into anything nasty.

I think most of the Shillelagh builds and True strike builds are just getting to the same general end point through different means.

Agreed.

Seems like the Devs have done math this time.

 

[James Gasik]

Seems like the Devs have done math this time.

I still want to know why they thought Flex was mathematically the best Weapon Mastery.

 

[mellored]

I still want to know why they thought Flex was mathematically the best Weapon Mastery.

Because it applies to 100% of attacks.

Compared to Vex, which doesn't work on the first attack, or if you change targets, or if someone else gives you advantage, or the target dies, or you miss.

1d10+3 vs 1d8+3
Is 13% more damage.

Which is roughly comparable getting advantage half the time.

Doesn't make it any fun though.

 

[Kinematics]

So, the Shillelagh is better than any other single feat dual-wielding, but if we do Great Weapon Master --> 4d6+10+5 -->29, which is almost as good, and has the bonus of giving you an ASI towards a stat you want, unlike shillelagh.

Not sure why you're comparing those. Shillelagh would come from Magic Initiate, which is a level 1 feat, and isn't competing with Great Weapon Master, which is a level 4 feat.

Taking the Dual-Weapon Style Feat would allow for 3d6+15 --> 25.5 so that isn't enough on its own.

Not sure who this would be for. Your response seems to be on whether Shillelagh would work for barbarian, but barbarian can't pick up a fighting style feat because it doesn't have the Fighting Style feature. (The fighting style feats were changed to having the Fighting Style feature as a prerequisite in UA6, instead of just being level 1 feats.)

Your math is correct, but the context seems off.