D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Crimson Longinus]

I believe the intent here is to suggest that the encounter includes 4d6 quantity of goblins.

So 14 goblins, which, at most, the fighter could attack around half of them on a turn assuming they are conveniently spaced.

At 7 hp a pop (CR 1/4 goblin), max modifier+basically any static damage bonus means any hit would indeed kill the goblins.

It does mean that the fighter is wasting a ton of damage on overkilling some goblins that could be going into the tarrasque (This is neither here nor there, as the same would be true of minion).

But here's the thing. That 7 hp goblin was pretty one-shottable at level 1. A +3 modifier + dueling fighting style means it only survived with a 1 on the damage roll 19 levels ago.

So let's look at the advancement from level 1 to level 20. At level 1, just starting out, a fighter can likely kill 1 goblins (assuming hits a hit). At level 20, at the pinnacle of their adventuring career, with an action surge, they can certainly kill (on hit) an incremental 7 more more goblins at level 20 on a turn that they could not kill at level 1.

That works out to..1 additional CR 1/4 creature a fighter can take out a turn (with action surge)..every 2.5 levels.

Is the heroic journey people should expect for their fighters, from being able to kill 1 goblin when they're first starting out to being able to kill 8 goblins at peak 'heroes of the realm' physical prowess?

Goblins are probably a bad example for this exercise as they actually are one-shottable. What is the highest CR creature a fighter can reliably one shot at level 20 that they couldn't one-shot at level 1.

Yeah, that's is fair. I said earlier that it would be nice if the fighter could choose to make one powerful attack instead of several regular ones. I could also see a relatively weak AOE slash to sweep several weak nearby enemies. But I don't think anyone here is genuinely interested in brainstorming solutions.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But I don't think anyone here is genuinely interested in brainstorming solutions.

Post 500?

Or just reintroducing minions. That is a solution.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Post 500?

Yeah, that was a welcome change of pace.

Or just reintroducing minions. That is a solution.

I said earlier:

But those wo are satisfied with minion rules to handle this, there literally is nothing stopping you from doing this in 5e. It is fully within GM's rights to give the enemies whatever amount of HP they want. Though this would actually boost casters with AOE spells, not fighters. I'd recommend using cleave rules from DMG alongside with this to get it work better with martials.

 

[Minigiant]

I've got no view on 5e design, other than that I don't care for it and I don't play 5e D&D.

But I do have an answer to the OP question: a mundane high level fighter looks like REH's Conan, who can kill a pack of were-hyenas with bow, sword, and his bare hands. And I do know of one version of D&D which reliably produces that sort of fiction: 4e D&D.

One of the main aspects of 4E was not really as tactical play but it's design goal of fulfilling fantasies.

4E as an exition went out to say "What are the fantasies that we want to be important in play" and resolved it's rules around it.

Outside of itself also bloating hit points, One of its biggest sin was displaying exactly how the fantasies that D&D players and D&D DMs have described would look like in actual rules. Fans wanted things but they didn't like the actual rules required to get them.

This is the main point of contention in 5E. There are things in D&D that the fans want a high level fighter or high level wizard or high level rogue to be able to do.

BUT

It will require specific rules to enforce these things. And 5E is on a DM empowerment kick where it doesn't want to tell DMs what they're supposed to be doing so instead it doesn't include the rules as base rules to enforce the things that the fanbase actually does want.

Quite frankly if you ask D&D fans should a high level fighter be able to punk 2 or 3 aggressive goblin ninjas per round, I'd expect that over 50% of them say would say yes.

The point of contention is that once they say yes and you tell them they have to make an extra rule to do so they get upset unless it's the DM themselves who make that rule. If it's a default base rule, there's so much crying.

And that's the rub.

*Muh Freedum to the same thing as everyone else!"

Like when I let my niece and nephew feel like they had a chance to win at games before I crush their dreams of victory. I ain't their daddy. They never had a chance in reality. I'm Mean Uncle Minigiant who always gets lucky. Sure sure. Make your move nephew.

 

[Vaalingrade]

While the change really is that simple, any solution that includes 'make the DM play unpaid designer' is just plain giving up and I'm against that on principle.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

While the change really is that simple, any solution that includes 'make the DM play unpaid designer' is just plain giving up and I'm against that on principle.

But it also is the only solution you're gonna get.

 

[Gammadoodler]

here's an idea - 5e has tiers, right? what if fighters (and possibly other martials) could deal additional damage and get an expanded crit range against creatures of lower tiers? so maybe a fighter's crit range expands by however many tiers lower the target of their attack is compared to them, and their damage is multiplied by a number one higher then that.

I like this idea quite a bit.

One perhaps strange bit would be the incentives in combat. Typically the fighter is incentivized to pour their damage into the biggest bucket that can hold it. Adding a substantial damage boost vs lower tier creatures would push that calculus toward taking out the lieutenants first before getting to the boss.

Not sure this is bad. Just intereating.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But it also is the only solution you're gonna get.

Yeah, if I just gave up, that'd be true.

 

[Scribe]

Blade killed a bunch of vampires with single punches and kicks. And he is just a dhampir with high states within the human range.

I wanna be Blade. Blade is cool.

Thats not D&D, certainly not 5e.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yeah, if I just gave up, that'd be true.

What does "not giving up" entail? Complaining on forums until WotC rewrites the game match your preferences?