D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

[Oofta]

So..only 10 levels later..more than half the game in and near the point where many folks stop playing, the fighter can finally take down multiple of these CR 2 beasies in a turn

And by 'multiple'..I assume we mean that the fighter can take down..2..with action surge and spending resources? Maybe a third if they score a lucky crit and positioning works out?

And by level 20, 8 levels later, that fighter can take down maybe...4 ogres with action surge and resource expenditure? Maybe a 5th with a crit (though good luck getting 5 large creatures positioned such that a Fighter can get to all of them in a turn)

So some classes get access to more and/or better spells every level up. Fighters get the ability to maybe kill one additional CR 2 monster a turn every...4 levels?

At the end of the day, my position is that an easy way to help a mundane fighter without running afoul of the "that's supernatural and I dont want it" crowd is to make fighters significantly more lethal in more circumstances.

The in-world justification is dead simple given that fighters were already assaulting creatures with sharpened and/or heavy chunks of metal. That they should be significantly better at killing things with those sharpened hunks of metal at high levels than low levels would seem likewise narratively consistent with expectations.

Would it need to be tuned? sure Could it be tuned by adjusting both monster hp and PC damage? also sure. Does the adjustment to either monster hp or PC damage need to reflect anything objective beyond the relative threat of one creature to the other, I don't think so, but as a matter of preference, I'd rather keep things consistent over time.

We already have a system that if you budget roughly according to the guidelines the fights take between 3-6 rounds. I don't know what you want or why. A level 6 fighter will be able to single-handedly take out that ogre, perhaps 2 if they spend an action surge ... so what's your point? You want fundamental changes to the game, I don't think they're necessary. Fair enough we have different desires.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The satisfaction of minions is beating foes that used to be tough to you but which are now at your mercy. This is the appeal of Devil May Cry for example.

And to me the satisfaction of beating foes that used be be tough requires that the foe actually uses same rules it did before, and was not just nerfed to make killing them easy for me.

 

[Minigiant]

But it doesn't feel like it! Mechanics matter. This genuinely cannot be that hard to comprehend, even if you personally wouldn't feel this way.

I understand

It's a limitation of the formula chosen.

Likely No 1 formula can work for 20 levels of play.

 

[Vaalingrade]

And to me the satisfaction of beating foes that used be be tough requires that the foe actually uses same rules it did before, and was not just nerfed to make killing them easy for me.

Those same rules make that freaking impossible, so we gotta investigate other options.

 

[Tony Vargas]

If the fighter's minimum damage is equal to the monster's average hit points, they are effectively minions without minion rules.

The most obvious thing about minions, especially in these discussions, is the 1 hp thing.
The most significant, tho, may have been:

; a missed attack never damages a minion.

In 4e, there were no saves to resolve attacks, traditional attack spells, like Fireball rolled to hit, with half damage on a miss (there were also 'DoaM' martial attacks, tho they roused little comment at the time).

So, yes, in 5e, a monster with hp no greater than the fighter's minimum damage is equivalent to a minion .... it's also likely going to die even if it saves successfully for 1/2 damage.

Minions were both less and more durable than merely low-HD monsters in other editions.

 

[Baron Opal II]

What about everyone else?

I know we talk about the fighter, but this excludes the rest of the party.

We have to care about their fun too. We are not wizards for gods' sake.

Well, they're not fighters, are they? Combat prowess isn't their schtick. Rangers, paladins, clavigers, they're all martial types so they have access to that level of combat capability but it takes a feat or two. Fighters start with it, the others start with those things implied by their class.

Thieves are skirmishers tactics-wise. Their burst damage lets them bring down the leader in the back and sneak their way to that opportunity. Monks are a bit of a hybrid between the two.

Spellcasters have their spells, as you say.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The most obvious thing about minions, especially in these discussions, is the 1 hp thing.
The most significant, tho, may have been:

; a missed attack never damages a minion.

In 4e, there were no saves to resolve attacks, traditional attack spells, like Fireball rolled to hit, with half damage on a miss (there were also 'DoaM' martial attacks, tho they roused little comment at the time).

So, yes, in 5e, a monster with hp no greater than the fighter's minimum damage is equivalent to a minion .... it's also likely going to die even if it saves successfully for 1/2 damage.

Minions were both less and more durable than merely low-HD monsters in other editions.

Which, (unsurprisingly, I'm sure) bugged me too. Like if we fireball a room full of normal orcs, they are basically guaranteed to all die. But if they're supposedly easier to kill minions, some are likely to survive.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If the fighter's minimum damage is equal to the monster's average hit points, they are effectively minions without minion rules.

Yes? I'm not sure I understand you, that's just how the rules work for everyone...

 

[Baron Opal II]

The most obvious thing about minions, especially in these discussions, is the 1 hp thing.
The most significant, tho, may have been:

; a missed attack never damages a minion.

In 4e, there were no saves to resolve attacks, traditional attack spells, like Fireball rolled to hit, with half damage on a miss (there were also 'DoaM' martial attacks, tho they roused little comment at the time).

So, yes, in 5e, a monster with hp no greater than the fighter's minimum damage is equivalent to a minion .... it's also likely going to die even if it saves successfully for 1/2 damage.

Minions were both less and more durable than merely low-HD monsters in other editions.

And? What fighter abilities are save for half? I hope you don't mean fireball or something similar. If the fighter can handle the situation, the fighter handles the situation. The wizard is there for when they can't.

 

[Pedantic]

Those same rules make that freaking impossible, so we gotta investigate other options.

I don't think that's supportable, there's a ton of ways this sort of ability could be modeled, and just the one specific way that clearly runs afoul of some player's aesthetic concerns.

The easiest thing I can think of is adding some default cleave ability, and a phantom bonus to damage that only triggers the death by massive damage rules, but does not cause HP depletion....which I just now realize I have accidentally stolen wholesale from Fantasy Craft, where that's the keen weapon trait.