D&D General What does the mundane high level fighter look like? [+]

Minion Mode: "Triple Damage. Third Hit Points"
The monster trades survivability to deadliness. It's still the same monster
How is it the same monster? What happened diagetically to switch the monster to "minion mode"?
Sounds like it's attacking all-out with no regard for its own life?

And one of the things that you see in all kinds of heroic fiction is the martial who can take out a lot of henchmen with speed and ease.
And the 5e fighter does not seem to be able to deliver on that within the context of current 5e monster design.
TBF, the 5e comfort zone as far as encounter design goes seems to be centered on "PCs outnumber the monster." Which, isn't exactly inappropriate for a cooperative monster-fighting game, really, and avoids some issues with BA.
Even if it doesn't fit a lot of heroic fantasy genre tropes.

Outside that comfort zone, being wildly outnumbered by a lot of low-CR creatures is troublesome. OT1H, if they're not extremely spread out, they can be default killed by spells. OTOH, if you need to depend on fighter types to multi-attack their way through them, it'll be a little while, and they'll get a lot of melee attacks in turn... OTOOH, if the mooks have missile weapons and can efficiently bring them to bear on one PC... ouch.
Certainly. If folks peak fighter power fantasy is being able to dispatch a school bus full of goblins in like 10 rounds..as long as those goblins stay in that school bus. Yeah, 5e can get you there.
If the goblins have a schoolbus you have bigger problems. ;)
 
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A 12th level fighter will chop multiple ogres to bits in one round.
I feel this claim has already been refuted multiple times. But here's another go around.

In AD&D, a 12th level fighter has 3/2 attacks per round (PHB) or 2/1 attacks per round with a specialised weapon (UA).

If using a longsword, damage per hit vs an ogre is d12 +6 (a fighter at that level probably has Gauntlets or a Girdle or some other way of getting buffed STR) +3 (a reasonable weapon bonus for a fighter of that level, having regard to published modules, the NPCs-in-dungeons treasure tables, etc) = average 15.5. An Ogre in AD&D is AC 5 (so auto-hit unless the table uses a miss-on-a-1 rule) and 4+1 HD, so a single hit has a meaningful but certainly not guaranteed chance to kill. Obviously weapon specialisation increases that chance.

If using a two-handed sword, damage per hit is 3d6 + 6 + 3 = average 19.5. The chance to kill is good.

So this fighter is able to kill an Ogre a round pretty reliably.

The fighter's hp are, say, 68 (+2 CON bonus), and AC is probably -2 (plate mail +3, DEX +1, +1 sundry) or -5 if using a shield (shield +2), so an Ogre hits on a 17 or a 20, for d10 damage or weapon +2 damage (GM's choice). The sword and shield fighter can withstand (on average) around 200 Ogre rolls to hit. The two-handed sword fighter is more vulnerable, because of the statistical quirk on the attack table - every additional point of AC they can eke out helps them tremendously whereas it makes no difference to the shield-wielding fighter (unless they get their AC below -10 and the GM decides that makes them untouchable).

If we assume two Ogres can attack per round (eg the fighter has their back to a wall/corner - this also means we don't need to factor in any Ogres having a positional bonus to hit), the sword and shield fighter can survive up to 100 rounds. And so can withstand a horde of 50+ Ogres. At about 200 XP per Ogre, that will earn the fighter 10,000+ XP, or one twenty-fifth of a level.

For comparison, a fireball from a wizard with the same number of XP - 1,000,000-ish, so a 12th or 13th level wizard - does base 42 or 45.5 damage (12 or 13d6) so will tend to kill every Ogre in its radius (an Ogre's save vs spells is 14, or about 1 in 3; so fewer than 1 in 6 ogres will survive the fireball).

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In 5e D&D, the 12th level fighter has +4 to hit (level) +5 (20 STR) + sundries (magic weapon, other buffs) and so will tend to auto-hit an Ogre, though perhaps not quite if using a -5 to hit feat. Damage with a longsword will be d8 +5 (STR) +2 (style) +3 (sundries) = average 14.5. That's around 4 attacks to drop an Ogre. So even with Action Surge it's unlikely that multiple Ogres will be killed in a round.

With a greatsword, damage is 2d6 +5 (STR) + 1 (style, rounding down very slightly) +10 (feat) +3 (sundries) = 26. That's just a bit over 2 attacks to drop an Ogre. With Action Surge it's likely that two Ogres will be killed.

If the fighter is a battle master, they have 4d10 of superiority dice. That's another half-Ogre or so.

If the fighter has +3 plate armour, their AC is (say) 22 (including +1 sundries) or 24 with a shield. The Ogre has +6 to hit for 13 damage, so hits on a 16 or 18 for an expected damage of 3-ish or 2-ish (again, the statistical quirk makes having a shield pretty good, though not as good as in AD&D). The fighter has 112 hp (CON 16) + 18 from second wind (rounding up) so 130. So can withstand 40 to 60+ Ogre attacks.

Unlike AD&D, the greatsword fighter is better here: assuming two Ogre attacks per round, they can defeat an incoming horde of around 30 Ogres. The 13500 XP are more than half of what is required for the next level.

For comparison, a fireball from a 12th level wizard can do 8d6 to 11d6 (6th level slot). It has virtually no chance of killing an Ogre, though it can give one a nasty burn.

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My conclusion: it's an exaggeration to say that a 12th level fighter, in 5e D&D, will chop multiple ogres to bits in one round. They might do this with Action Surge. When compared to AD&D, the 12th level fighter is weaker vs Ogres, but not hugely so: the difference between a horde of dozens of Ogres and a horde of hundreds is probably not that much in most narrative contexts.

The 12th level MU, on the other hand, is not as good at mopping up Ogres with fireballs in 5e as in AD&D. This seems generally consistent with the change in emphasis, certainly there in 3E, on what counts as good wizard play: from artillery to control.

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Werewolf addendum: in AD&D a Werewolf has AC5, 4+3 HD, and does 2d4 damage on a hit. So is largely interchangeable with an Ogre in the above calculations, though is worth about 300 XP (because their immunity to ordinary weapons and their diseased bite give them an XP step-up).

In 5e, the Werewolf has 58 hp (compared to the Ogre's 59), but only +4 to hit for 13 damage (hybrid multi-attack). So the 5e fighter definitely prefers to face a pack of Werewolves to a horde of Ogres, especially as they're also worth 700 XP each!
 

Test it. I'd expect the results to be super swingy, and who gets the initiative to decide the battle. Not necessarily something I'd want.
Ogres got -1 to initiative. They are likely still going last.

All that changes is that they will be targeted at the start of combat instead of ignored and do nothing but cheap hits on downed 0 HP PCs.

It's 29 HP with 39 damage great clubs. Sure you are screwed if they all hit someone but that's what's supposed to happen.
 

Why is consistency and predictability good thing? I guess it isn't if you don't think it is. I generally appreciate it.

But why do you appreciate it? Why is it important for all ogres to have the same stats? You yourself said that you may change them up depending on what role a given ogre may have. Why is consistency less important in those cases?

Because they're representing a diegetic difference, not a narrative one.

It's both in both cases.

It is in a sense that if the same fictional entity can be represented by a different stat block due their narrative role, you don't only need to decide what the creature is, you need to also decide its role.

I fail to see how this is difficult at all, or anything that the GM isn't already doing when designing encounters or locations.

I don't think "I just ignore the rules and do whatever" is a terribly convincing argument for the rules being solid!

It's not ignoring the rules. It's having different rules for different participants.

You know... like how NPCs don't have full PC-like stats.

Difference is whether the difference in stats is representing a difference that exists in the fictional world.

In both cases they do. That's the point. You insist there's nothing in the world justifying the classification of a creature as a minion, but there absolutely is. Just as much as there is for any other change to a stat block for a given monster or NPC.

I see. But then this is meta information, as if minions only exist as narrative conceit, it is not something the characters could know.

Why not?

"There are many ogres in this room. One towers above... Mord, the pit fighter. He has large shields strapped to his arms and legs like greaves and wields a great maul. The others are rank and file ogres, dangerous, but not nearly as threatening as Mord."

It's simple.

It is them being in sync.

Sure, like I'm in sync with my boss when we disagree and I have to just do what they say anyway.

Again ignoring the rules. I rather have rules that actually represent the world so that they give results that are fitting to the world and I don't need to ignore them.

Again, no one is ignoring the rules. NPCs and PCs have different rules.

I mean, I don't know about you, but minion rules or not, if a monster has 1 hp left, a housecat is never going to kill it. Even in the unlikely evet that such a scenario came about that a house cat attacked an ogre, I'd just narrate the results as ineffective and move on.

I mean... the idea is rules that make high level martials effective, not house cats.

Of course it is. With it you don't need to be constantly ignore rules like you seem to be doing to get sensible results.

Again, no one is ignoring rules. Different rules apply. What it requires is the addition of a bunch of new rules or calculations that need to be done, rather than just going the minion route, which is incredibly easy to track at the table and doesn't require any kind of calculation.
 

TBF, the 5e comfort zone as far as encounter design goes seems to be centered on "PCs outnumber the monster." Which, isn't exactly inappropriate for a cooperative monster-fighting game, really, and avoids some issues with BA.
Even if it doesn't fit a lot of heroic fantasy genre tropes.
It's more "PCs outnumber the monsters 2 to 1."

4 to 1 and the monster dies to action economy.

One to one, and the monsters can rocket tag team someone and have enough health to get through it
 

Ogres got -1 to initiative. They are likely still going last.

All that changes is that they will be targeted at the start of combat instead of ignored and do nothing but cheap hits on downed 0 HP PCs.

It's 29 HP with 39 damage great clubs. Sure you are screwed if they all hit someone but that's what's supposed to happen.
Yes, but D20 is swingy and besides, you'd presumably would use the same logic with other monsters too, some of which might have better initiative. It might get the results you want' but all I'm saying that there are reason why it doesn't work like this in the default game.
 


Unlike AD&D, the greatsword fighter is better here: assuming two Ogre attacks per round, they can defeat an incoming horde of around 30 Ogres. The 13500 XP are more than half of what is required for the next level.

For comparison, a fireball from a 12th level wizard can do 8d6 to 11d6 (6th level slot). It has virtually no chance of killing an Ogre, though it can give one a nasty burn.
Good analysis, and these are what seemed the salient bits to me. Being able to solo 30 ogres seems pretty damn badass to me! And as comparison it is important the wizard isn't that great at this. So this actually seems pretty fine to me.
 

TBF, the 5e comfort zone as far as encounter design goes seems to be centered on "PCs outnumber the monster." Which, isn't exactly inappropriate for a cooperative monster-fighting game, really, and avoids some issues with BA.
Even if it doesn't fit a lot of heroic fantasy genre tropes.
Perhaps this is true, but it's also disappointing (imo).
 

But why do you appreciate it? Why is it important for all ogres to have the same stats? You yourself said that you may change them up depending on what role a given ogre may have. Why is consistency less important in those cases?
Consistency regarding the fictional world!

I fail to see how this is difficult at all, or anything that the GM isn't already doing when designing encounters or locations.
It is an extra step that doesn't exist in the objective model.

It's not ignoring the rules. It's having different rules for different participants.

You know... like how NPCs don't have full PC-like stats.
You literally are ignoring the rules. The cat has attack rules, the ogre minion has rules that say it has one HP.

In both cases they do. That's the point. You insist there's nothing in the world justifying the classification of a creature as a minion, but there absolutely is. Just as much as there is for any other change to a stat block for a given monster or NPC.


Why not?

"There are many ogres in this room. One towers above... Mord, the pit fighter. He has large shields strapped to his arms and legs like greaves and wields a great maul. The others are rank and file ogres, dangerous, but not nearly as threatening as Mord."

It's simple.

Ok. so you think the ogre minions are dietetically representing weaker ogres. But then you said earlier as response to why the commoners don't kill the minion ogre:
Because they're not powerful heroes? Gee whiz.
So now it is no longer a weaker ogre whose on HP diegetically represents it's status as a weakling? What gives?

Sure, like I'm in sync with my boss when we disagree and I have to just do what they say anyway.
This makes no sense. The rules are chosen to represent the fictional world in the first place, thus their outcome will represents that world.

Again, no one is ignoring the rules. NPCs and PCs have different rules.
You literally do. Town guard has rules, the characters have rules, the minion monsters have rules. This would result the townguard killing these monsters with ease, but you just choose to ignore this. Seriously, these sort of relational statblocks are just a huge mess; it is not good design.

I mean, I don't know about you, but minion rules or not, if a monster has 1 hp left, a housecat is never going to kill it. Even in the unlikely evet that such a scenario came about that a house cat attacked an ogre, I'd just narrate the results as ineffective and move on.
That seems like a very boring choice. Scruffy killing the ogre is the sort of stuff that will be remembered for years. Granted, it is far less remarkable if it was foregone conclusion due a design flaw in the system rather than a highly unlikely freak occurrence.

I mean... the idea is rules that make high level martials effective, not house cats.
But they actually do both.
 

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