D&D 5E House rule for in combat healing and yoyo at 0 HP

[ezo]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, so I'm just throwing this out there.

Whenever you cast a healing spell, the target can spend Hit Dice to regain hit points (as well as those provided by the spell).

This way, a single spell can boost the "healing" gained by the target, but the cost is you won't have the HD to spend later when resting.

 

[GMMichael]

Yo-yo healing is ridiculous in-and-of itself. It's also the optimal strategy,

Not sure how you're reconciling "ridiculous" and "optimal." But I'll read on...

which is why it's so common to see. The PC suffers no drawbacks until they hit zero HP, so it's simply more efficient to not bother healing until the PC is dropped to zero.

It's more efficient to wait for drawbacks than to avoid them?

Death saves are cleared and the revived PC operates at full combat capability regardless of their recent near-death experience, so the healer is being more efficient by simply waiting.

Welp, that answers my question.

None of the "solutions" you provide are more efficient for the gamers, which is why gamers reject them.

You have an interesting definition of "efficient." As I mentioned earlier, yo-yoing isn't exactly what I'd call efficient. The story so far is that it's the preference of players (or "optimal strategy"), who then go on to complain about how they don't like it.

The only one that might prevent this in future is NPCs confirming the kill. Which will immediately be thrown in the face of the GM as a sign they're bad and a killer GM.

If a player 1) engages in combat, 2) doesn't flee when the opponent's next turn will likely result in too much damage, and 3) blames everyone but him/herself for the outcome, then please, call me a killer GM with a straight face.

 

[Clint_L]

There is the rule about not casting a levelled spell when also casting a bonus action spell.

This is less impactful to clerics though I think.

Sure, but a cleric or bard generally still has a good melee or ranged attack, or can use a cantrip. Being able to pick up a downed teammate and still hit a bad guy with your rapier or sacred flame or whatever feels pretty good!

 

[Mecheon]

How much % hp should a healer be able to restore in a single round and at what resource cost?

Enough to make the loss of a round of attacks be worthwhile, so probably at least the full amount of damage you could expect to get in at least a single round, if only a single round and a half as a bare minimum. As for resource cost? Basically the same as what it is at present. Failling that, add in some Quick Action type heals that healer types can throw in alongside their main attacks

The way to disencourage yoyo healing is to make in-combat healing more viable. Give it a higher resource costs and folks will just go right back to the yoyo.

It's more efficient to wait for drawbacks than to avoid them?

Healing percentages (Unless in very specific circumstances) basically never outdo the damage an enemy can do in a single turn. So if you heal someone, yeah, you've wasted that turn because that someone's taken damage and is in the same position (or worse!) the very next turn 90% of the time. Its not enjoyable to see someone's work be destroyed in a single turn. Its the same reason, at its core, that the "Potions are a quick action" rule is popular, because you're not sacrificing actually doing something to heal.

You could have instead used that turn to do more damage to the opponent and get them closer to being taken out. The way to change people's play-styles is to incentivise the other side, not punish them for playing how the game is designed to be played. And frankly the only thing I see double tapping resulting in is your players leaving because you've basically made yourself out to be a jerk DM because hell knows if you're being that much of a jerk-ass I'm going to leave your game

 

[Dragongrief]

.
Whenever you cast a healing spell, the target can spend Hit Dice to regain hit points (as well as those provided by the spell).

This way, a single spell can boost the "healing" gained by the target, but the cost is you won't have the HD to spend later when resting.

I use a version of this in the game I run. Conscious characters can spend a number of Hit Dice up to the number of dice the spell restored.

Allows enough healing to be useful; makes healing before hitting 0 hp better than waiting; and leaves out spells like Heal, which are good already.

 

[GMMichael]

Healing percentages (Unless in very specific circumstances) basically never outdo the damage an enemy can do in a single turn. So if you heal someone, yeah, you've wasted that turn because that someone's taken damage and is in the same position (or worse!) the very next turn 90% of the time.

So, you've bought your tank an additional round of dealing damage. That's not what I'd call wasteful.

However, if my tank is getting whupped, and refuses to move to safety, that's her problem, not mine.

Its not enjoyable to see someone's work be destroyed in a single turn. Its the same reason, at its core, that the "Potions are a quick action" rule is popular, because you're not sacrificing actually doing something to heal.

I refuse to find out what a quick action is. Those were supposed to die with 3e. Also, I'm not sure how healing isn't "actually doing something." If my healer chooses to fight instead of heal, I'd call it "actually doing something else."

You could have instead used that turn to do more damage to the opponent and get them closer to being taken out. The way to change people's play-styles is to incentivise the other side, not punish them for playing how the game is designed to be played. And frankly the only thing I see double tapping resulting in is your players leaving because you've basically made yourself out to be a jerk DM because hell knows if you're being that much of a jerk-ass I'm going to leave your game

But...the PC that you just healed did more damage. Does it only count if the healer does the damage?

If my PC dies because my battle plan was to stand right next to the big-bad and swing it out, even when my damage forecasts said that I'd be taking an average amount of damage greater than what my healer could provide, and I told my healer to back off because "I want to die - it's more efficient," and then my GM chops my character's head off because my jerk of a cleric-buddy was waiting behind cover to Healing Word me but lost initiative ( even though we knew the initiative order at the beginning of battle), then I agree. He's a "jerk-ass" and it's all his fault.

 

[Vaalingrade]

So, you've bought your tank an additional round of dealing damage.

That's the problem: you more than likely did not.

Healing doesn't restore HP comparable to the damage the tank takes in a round, so you're not buying a round most of the time, you're buying maybe a single hit if that.

 

[Mecheon]

So, you've bought your tank an additional round of dealing damage. That's not what I'd call wasteful.

However, if my tank is getting whupped, and refuses to move to safety, that's her problem, not mine.

Nope. That damage you healed is gone again. A goblin sneezed and that took out the HP you healed, sorry. They're back to where they were and all the damage came through, your healing was pointless.

On a strict timeline of damage for time, 5E massively values damage over healing.

I refuse to find out what a quick action is. Those were supposed to die with 3e. Also, I'm not sure how healing isn't "actually doing something." If my healer chooses to fight instead of heal, I'd call it "actually doing something else."

We're how many years into 5E with debates over this potion rule, you absolutely have at least heard of this one.

Regardless though, we're talking efficiency. In a strict "The way the numbers go in a fight", dealing damage or preventing your opponent from dealing damage (Though stuns) is most efficent on taking down opponents. Healing's numbers are too low. You're not reversing an entire turn, you're barely reversing half a turn

But...the PC that you just healed did more damage. Does it only count if the healer does the damage?

If my PC dies because my battle plan was to stand right next to the big-bad and swing it out, even when my damage forecasts said that I'd be taking an average amount of damage greater than what my healer could provide, and I told my healer to back off because "I want to die - it's more efficient," and then my GM chops my character's head off because my jerk of a cleric-buddy was waiting behind cover to Healing Word me but lost initiative ( even though we knew the initiative order at the beginning of battle), then I agree. He's a "jerk-ass" and it's all his fault.

And if the healer did damage instead, then the enemy would be dead because 5E doesn't have much healing on either side. Your healing can never out-pace the damage coming through. The only way to lower the damage coming is to murder or shut down your opponent. Running doesn't work.

That big bad is an idiot in your situation then, because he's just wasted his turn to get away from the team who's been firing at him from range the whole time because your party isn't just two people. He's wasted a move that could be used to get into a better position, do some sort of spell to lock down other people, and wasted all of it on a double-tap. He'll be eating an entire turns worth of attacks for sitting around like that and your entire team is going to know you're not playing folks inteligently, you're being a spiteful DM.

Playing Apex, y'know what happens when folks in a firefight decide to focus on the people who are down rather than the ones shooting the oncoming bullets? Those people get killed because they're being dumb. That's the exact playstyle of someone who goes for the double tap in the middle of being actively shot at by the rest of the party

 

[GMMichael]

That's the problem: you more than likely did not.

Healing doesn't restore HP comparable to the damage the tank takes in a round, so you're not buying a round most of the time, you're buying maybe a single hit if that.

Keep up. I was responding to Mecheon's situation that occurs "90% of the time," which is, as you say, more than likely:

. . . Healing percentages (Unless in very specific circumstances) basically never outdo the damage an enemy can do in a single turn. So if you heal someone, yeah, you've wasted that turn because that someone's taken damage and is in the same position (or worse!) the very next turn 90% of the time. . .

Playing Apex, y'know what happens when folks in a firefight decide to focus on the people who are down rather than the ones shooting the oncoming bullets? Those people get killed because they're being dumb. That's the exact playstyle of someone who goes for the double tap in the middle of being actively shot at by the rest of the party

I haven't played Apex. I've played Battlefield, and I've earned tons of points from healers who would revive their teammates without taking me out first. So, I'd just shoot the revived teammate, and let the yo-yo begin. Interestingly, three of my solutions from above apply to this: don't stand in dangerous places, wait until the killer is gone before you heal, and confirm the kill (unless of course you find it hilarious to re-kill opponents as they get healed).

I've also played old-school Final Fantasy. In it, characters never die; they swoon. This applies to the common "wisdom" in this thread, because there's no maneuvering in the game; tanks and monsters are always head-to-head. A simple (but not cheap) item will bring your ally back to fighting condition, weapon at the ready. So did I let my characters die? Heck no! A fallen character is one who isn't doing damage (or stealing items, in my case). Reviving a fallen ally means that the healer isn't healing one or more of the upright heroes. So it's worthwhile to 1) keep allies in the fight by healing wounds, and 2) allow the tanks to do their thing by making the healers do their thing: healing.

"But that's video games! What about how broken D&D is?" Okay, fine. Let's fix yo-yoing with a house-rule that says melee PCs never take damage. That way, healers can be more efficient, tanks don't have to worry about dropping, and enemies can never deal more damage in a round than healers can heal. That should fix it.

 

[ThrorII]

We don't 5e anymore (we B/X-OSE), but when we did 5e, we did 1 level of exhaustion for dropping to 0 hp and yo yo ing back, AND we rolled on the DMG Lingering Injury Table if you were dropped to 0 hp.